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Equitable Pay for Horn Section

#21
DylanB said:
A horn player I know told me recently that he doesn't think of it as getting paid for playing, rather he considers he gets paid for driving, setting up, soundchecking, rehearsing, waiting around, etc.

Actually I'd pay them the same as everyone else, even if they do just turn up and play and bolt. How are you going to monitor attendance, timesheets? Punchcards?!
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I've played sax for about 8 years. Setting up is a two minute process, and it's not hard to carry an 8lb instrument into a venue in one trip. Compare that to drums, multiple guitars, amps, keyboards, PA equipment, etc... They have a much easier job than the 'core' band. They can also have the luxury of showing up 10 minutes before the gig and leaving immediately after. I certainly don't have that ability (and I'm pretty darn quick at my tear down and setup). Plus in my experiences, horn players rarely come to all rehearsals, rarely help book, rarely help network, and rarely bring other talents (be they musical or business based) into groups. Of course there are exceptions, but based on personal experiences you'd have a hard time selling me on equal pay unless you pulled a lot more weight around as a horn player.
 
#22
jive1 said:
If they help with the PA, book gigs, and attend rehearsals, they should get an equitable cut. But, if all they do is just show up 5 minutes before a gig and bolt as soon as the gig is over, no.
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Exactly.

I don't have a huge issue with a horn section only playing half the gig. Sometimes certain songs just don't lend themselves to horns plus I'm not sure my ears could stand a 4-hour show with a horn section behind me the whole time.

But if my band is DIY on production and my core players are humping P.A. and lights and putting in 1-2 hours on the front and back end of the gig besides stage time, then no way do the horns get an equal cut unless they're participating in that part of the gig as well. Nobody else in my band would expect everyone else to do their setup work for them and still get equal pay so why would the horns be treated any differently?
 
#23
They should get the same, or close to what everyone else gets, or you can't expect to get a very good, or reliable horn section. I can see the other side of it though. Maybe divide the money equally, but with an extra cut to split among the core band? So, if you're a 5 pc with 3 horns, divide it 9 ways, and split the extra cut with the core band. But that's as far as I'd go.
 
#24
Pacman said:
They're there for as long as you are, they deserve the same bread.
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I agree with this. The guys we use also sing background and play percussion or what have you. They are onstage for the entire gig. It's an easy way to cause dissention and make them not want to play for you.


Just my opinion. Now if you negotiate payment ahead of time and they agree, then cool.
 
#27
They deserve the same $ if they are putting in the same time into the gig and group preparation for the gig. Which includes things like learning the tunes by yourself at home prior to full-band rehersals as well as the full band rehersals themselves. If they do all this like everyone else, then they are spending the same time and deserve the same pay.

However, if they say, "hey man, just bring the charts, tell me the key, and cue me when there is a solo, and I'll see you 5 minutes before the gig" then there is a legit argument to pay them less.
 
#28
Yeti got it. If they were in the band, they'd get an even cut (as long as that's how your band works); but they're not in the band. If they were, the pie would be sliced too thin to make the bulk of your gigs worthwhile.

Since they're contractors, what you pay them depends on finding overlap between what you can offer for a gig and what the individual horn players can accept.

It doesn't even *have* to be the case that all the horn players' cuts are equal. Dynamics in the horn section will be easier w/ equal cuts, but sometimes a player is in such demand that you have to offer a premium to get him or her on the gig. In fact, I've seen that work both ways. For example, I can think of an absolutely excellent local horn player (w/ credits from Miles Davis and Buddy Rich to the Dave Matthews Band) who--as long as he likes the music and he has the date free--will play almost any gig for any money. OTOH, I've also seen fill-in or add-on players take home a bigger cut (sometimes significantly bigger) than a band's core players.
 
#29
jaywa said:
Exactly.

I don't have a huge issue with a horn section only playing half the gig. Sometimes certain songs just don't lend themselves to horns plus I'm not sure my ears could stand a 4-hour show with a horn section behind me the whole time.

But if my band is DIY on production and my core players are humping P.A. and lights and putting in 1-2 hours on the front and back end of the gig besides stage time, then no way do the horns get an equal cut unless they're participating in that part of the gig as well. Nobody else in my band would expect everyone else to do their setup work for them and still get equal pay so why would the horns be treated any differently?
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I would do the same for anyone in the band, not just horns.

For example, if everyone in the band is getting paid $100 ea for a show, then the horn players should get paid the same regardless of the number of songs they play. However, I would make an exception if the horn players got to leave a gig early or get there later because they weren't involved in the material for those sets.

But, I'm one of those that believe that the person booking the gigs and schlepping the PA should get an additional cut.

But in the end, it really comes down to this:
the yeti said:
negotiate a fee and pay it. on their end it's negotiate a fee and live with it.
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I've done that with horn players and other band members, and there have been times where they got paid more than I did.
 
#30
bluesbass99 said:
We are a 5-pc. combo and decided to start including a 3-pc horn section (sax, trumpet, trombone) in some of our gigs. For most of the club dates, we can't afford them. For some of the higher end clubs and weddings, we will use them. They've played 4 times with us at this point with gigs on the books.

The question I have is what is considered to be fair and equitable payment for a horn section? Currently, they perform roughly one-half of songs with us. I'm basically paying them on a prorata basis, which means they would get 50% of the pay we receive since we play on 100% of the songs.

What would be considered to be reasonable if they played on 100% of the songs? For those places that can afford the horns, we've only been getting between $50-$100 for the horn section. I'm getting push back from both ends...from the regular 5 pc. band, as well as the horn section. I want to be fair and reasonable, but truthfully, if we try to get much more than $100 from the clubs, they balk, so we play those clubs as a 5 pc unit.

What is y'all's experience and what would y'all suggest?
Thanks!
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Is the horn section there at the venue from the first song until the last song of the gig?
 
#31
jaywa said:
Except if you're doing production setup and teardown yourself and the horns aren't there for that. Then their time commitment and workload is NOT as much as the rest of the band and they do NOT deserve an equal cut.
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This sounds like almost every lead singer I've ever worked with, but we always paid them a full cut. Why? I sure as hell can't front a band, and a good front person is a big part of your draw.

Seems to me a full cut is sometimes in order regardless of schleping gear.
 
#33
IMHO even if they only play half the songs they should get equal pay because they have to be there for the whole gig . . . unless you only use them in the first or second half and they show up halfway through or go home after the half. If I'm a horn player and you want me at a gig for 4 hours you pay me for 4 hours.
 
#35
As others have said, time is money. Unless they get to show up halfway through the gig they are burning the same amount of time. That said, as long as you talk to them and everyone is happy with whatever arrangement, less pay might be ok in specific situations.
 
#37
zfunkman said:
IMHO even if they only play half the songs they should get equal pay because they have to be there for the whole gig . . . unless you only use them in the first or second half and they show up halfway through or go home after the half. If I'm a horn player and you want me at a gig for 4 hours you pay me for 4 hours.
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I agree. Musicians are not paid by the note or by the song (this sounds like that National Lampoon "Mr. Rogers" skit).

People should be paid for the time they have set aside and devoted to being in the venue. It's not their fault they are not needed on every song. That doesn't change the fact they have to invest just as much time as everyone else (schleping gear aside).
 
#38
nope, equal cut is for guys in a band together who share equal responsibilities. if you are hiring a horn section I wouldn't even say how much we are getting paid just what you are going to pay them. & I surely don't care if they "dot" charts or whatever else they do to get ready for a gig. everyone that does fill in gigs has to. deal with it.
 
#39
12 - year professional on various horns here:

there are three very important things to consider :

1) while I can understand the prorate sentiment, the fact is the most gigs are pay-for-day, rather than an hourly wage. The fact is that these guys are giving up a whole night for a gig.

2) I think it's a big problem that you have not discussed it with the horn players. and despite what someone else said, it is a big deal for you to call in horn players for a cameo/ moonlighting gig, expect them to deliver and give up the whole night, which often does include learning songs that you're not familiar with and possibly making charts and then still assume that for some reason they deserve less than you. especially considering the bass players play the least notes of anyone, hopefully

3) unless you're making an insane amount of more money on big gigs, it's insulting that you wouldn't break them off evenly for a few hundred dollars split eight ways

there is zero chance I would accept this as a gig. Ill accept whatever my cut is from bandleaders, because its THEIR show, but if we're talking about performing a set for $60 on instruments as taxing as brass are, while the core, invested members who played easier instruments, and didn't have to cram to learn the set, make over a hundred, then I would definetly suggest they either suck it or find midi horns
 
#40
Offer them what you think is fair.
If they take it, then it's a square deal.

I've gigged with bands where I knew they were making double or more than I was.
But I agreed to a certain amount.
I have no one to be mad at for it, except for myself.

But, I just showed up for sound check and after the gig, loaded out my gear, got paid and left.

Didn't have to talk up the club manager for more gigs. Didn't have to set up the PA or lights. Didn't care if no one danced or was a light draw for the club.

Something is worth what someone will pay/take.

Funny story:
I worked with one band where we had a female singer who sang maybe 30% of the songs.
She would walk in 1/2 hour prior to us starting most gigs. Didnt move anything except for her arse. And leave promptly after getting paid.
After one gig she saw what the rest of us were getting paid and got SUPER mad at the band leader. The "I'm gonna beat you within 3" of death and quit unless you pay me more" kinda pissed.

After she calmed down, I heard them talking (while I was wrapping cables) and Dave, being a fair guy actually, told her to be at every gig when the rest of us get there. Help set up the gear, stay on stage and sing SOMETHING on every song and stay late and load out.
She got mad AGAIN and didn't think she should have to do that.

She got fired.
Honestly, I think she got about 75% of what we got paid.
 

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