Double Bass EUB Amplification In High Volume Settings

[Passinwind]

What strategies do you EUB players use when playing with a loud band? I've recently been doing surf music with two very loud guitar players and a socking drummer. When the FOH is sufficiently pumped up, low frequency feedback tends to become an issue. I have the tools to fix this, in the form of parametric EQ, plus a 2000+ watt stereo stage rig, but that seems a little extreme. The issue is not whether I can hear myself, but whether the rest of the band can hear me sufficiently. The monitors are rarely up to the task, so I need to do this with stage volume, for better or worse. The band has no intention of turning down, and I have no problem with that. I also play with hip-hop acts sometimes, and have no problems, but that is probably because of the absence of guitars in most cases.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

iAMP 800 into the PA.

 

[NJL]

I have a messenger bass into:

ampeg SVP (needs to go)
qsc 1450 (bridged mono) into
Aguilar 112
Eden 112
no effects

my little trick to playing with a rock group; actually we do rock tunes, but the stage volume isn't loud - educated drummer who's actually a musician , guitar player playing nylon (DI, no amp) and singer who doesn't care if hears herself (she actually can sing her ass off)....anyway....i raise my little 12 boxes up to my head....

i used an ultimate keyboard stand (dj stand) with a GRAMMA or two under the cabs.....

i find that i don't have to crank it this way, the sound is coming directly to my ears not my ankles....

 

[NJL]

http://www.harmonyonline.com/keyboard-stands.htm

it's the Ultra KKS100

 

[Francois Blais]

A magnetic pickup would also help a lot!
(String Charger, Biesele, others?)

 

[Passinwind]

Thanks all, it's nice to see you here in the new EUB forum!

I do use an iAmp 800 into a CXL-112 for my jazz gigs, and in many other situations. I just bought a Schroeder 1210 as well. At last week's gig, I ended up using my EB rack rig, with two EV 15s, and 450 watts/speaker (QSC 2402). This was adequate, but I like the iAmp rig better. I normally use the tiltup leg on the CXL, but as I said, I can hear myself fine no matter what I use. The issue is providing stage monitoring of the bass to the drummer and guitarists, but carrying as little gear as I can get away with.

As far as drummers, I often play fusion on the EUB with my usual drummer and the CXL; with a FOH feed, no problem there at all. This guy can be uncannily quiet and still groove like you can't believe. The surf band is fairly punkish though,and the drummer doesn't have the same sort of finesse, so I tried my fretless EB for the second set, which worked fine. They dig the visual aspects of the EUB though, and I'm mainly known locally for EUB, so folks generally want to see me playing it. I have an older BSX with piezo pickups only, and the magnetic pickup option has certainly crossed my mind. I don't really need or want to be louder, just more widely distributed and or more effectively EQ'd on stage. Make sense?

Now, as far as the feedback issue: has anyone tried a Gramma or something similar under the peg of the bass? I'm pretty sure at least some of the low frequency energy is coupling through the stage, even though the subs are isolated from it.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

i play an ns eub through lfo filters for live drum'n bass and sometimes the extreme lows just go nuts..
i found sometimes a phase reverse (like on a fishman pre) can be
a big help.. also using more magnetic pickup if you have one.
i also purchased the ns strap and it gets rid of all feedback, as the bass doesn't touch the ground but unfortunately i can't find a comfortable position with it for arco.
it's also hard to resist flooring the subs on the eq with these monsters,
there is no substitute for 41&1/2" scale when you like sick subs...
especially on a low b..
cheers
dk

 

[Passinwind]

Thanks, DK. The problem area is right around the low E fundamental. I found that replacing the metal peg on the BSX with a wood one helped with feedback higher up than my current problematic frequency range. I'm going to play with different pin ends and maybe a pad under the pin. I have a lot of friends in the composites industry, so I might take a crack at something esoteric for the pin too.

The phase reversal idea is worthy too, I think. I've had had to get my bass out of the monitors because of phase issues at a few gigs, so reversing could help there too, maybe.

I do love pumping up the 18" subs in the local club. I don't have a 5'er, but my BSX still gets plenty phat.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

here's an idea...
they use ceramic disks to isolate hi-fi stereos....
maybe you could try using a creamic speaker-stand for the tip of your endpin...
you'd just have to find one strudy enough(hi-fi store?)
-dk

 

[JTGale]

As for the rest of the band being able to hear you, what about having two cabs raised to ear level, one on either end of the stage in a crossfire pattern? Just a thought ...

 

[NJL]

As for the rest of the band being able to hear you, what about having two cabs raised to ear level, one on either end of the stage in a crossfire pattern? Just a thought ...

this is the only way to go

 

[justBrian]

I have an older Clevinger and have used it a few rock rehersals. It went through a GK700RB (with the hig-mids pretty much scooped and the rest of the EQ set pretty flat) into two Avatar CB112s. It was plenty loud enough to get by two guitars and a ham-handed drummer.

 

[Passinwind]

As for the rest of the band being able to hear you, what about having two cabs raised to ear level, one on either end of the stage in a crossfire pattern? Just a thought ...

That addresses what I'm asking, but bass frequencies are not really directional, and raising cabs to ear level has rarely helped me hear myself better unless it's a low volume situation, or unless I'm just looking for better pitch definition, which I rarely have a problem with. I generally prefer the boundary coupling effect of cabs on (or near) the floor, for the rooms I play in at least. Your suggestion satisfies lots of folks though, no doubt. The stack I used last time does put one driver at ear level, in any case. I'm usually far enough away from my cabs that's it's maybe moot anyway.

The band say they want to feel more lows, although the drummer just wants "more everything". One potential problem with cross-firing cabs is phase cancellation in the middle, which is already a bit of an issue with the FOH and a very loud on stage rig. Another is bleed into the vocal and instrument mikes. Still, I'll try your suggestion this week at open mike, and see how it works out. So far, adding more cabs and spreading them has just made things worse though. Perhaps giving the band pitch cues is the real issue, regardless of what they think. The stated issue isn't mud though; it's thinness, if anything. I'm guessing that the physical location of my cab(s) is going to be critically important to resolving things.

BTW, I used to do sound for a living, and I realize that this is all needless, believe me. Frankly, I'd pass on mixing this band unless they'd wise up a bit. It's just one of those deals where I have to grin and bear it, or else go home.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Passinwind]

I have an older Clevinger and have used it a few rock rehersals. It went through a GK700RB (with the hig-mids pretty much scooped and the rest of the EQ set pretty flat) into two Avatar CB112s. It was plenty loud enough to get by two guitars and a ham-handed drummer.

BD,

I can hear myself fine, and the sound at FOH is OK, except for the low freq feedback issue. Just the CXL-112 is enough to let me hear myself, actually.

Again, thanks to all the respondents. Everyone so far has had worthwhile input, I appreciate it.

 

[NJL]

have you tried isolating the cabs from the floor via GRAMMA's?

 

[Passinwind]

have you tried isolating the cabs from the floor via GRAMMA's?

Nope, but I'm actually looking into building something along those lines. I work in hydroacoustics, so I have access to some good minds and nice high tech materials. The feedback issue occurs even if my stage rig is turned completely off though; it's coming from the subs, which are offstage. I could insert a parametric EQ (I own 3) at the board , or even build a notch filter into my DI, but I'm weighing up as many approaches as possible before I do that.

 

[NJL]

Nope, but I'm actually looking into building something along those lines. I work in hydroacoustics, so I have access to some good minds and nice high tech materials.

how about this, why don't you make some new designs and sell them. i'll buy them from you!

The feedback issue occurs even if my stage rig is turned completely off though; it's coming from the subs, which are offstage.

wow! what is the FoH guys doing? is he stumped too? what about the feedback exterminator from sabine? hmm... interesting. great thread btw!

I could insert a parametric EQ (I own 3) at the board , or even build a notch filter into my DI, but I'm weighing up as many approaches as possible before I do that.

this is just me, but this sounds like the FoH guy (or band leader) responsibility to pay for extra gear, but you going out of your way to "get the job done" is very noble!

.

 

[Passinwind]

how about this, why don't you make some new designs and sell them. i'll buy them from you!

I'm not angling for business on Talkbass, but you're not the first one to say something like that. We can talk about it in PM if I get it happening.

wow! what is the FoH guys doing? is he stumped too? what about the feedback exterminator from sabine?

It's a new but experienced FOH guy, and a new board. It's a new band too, for that matter. I've mixed in the room a few times, and I maintain the system for the club. The first time it happened, I just snuck over to the board and hit the low cut on my channel. Sound deWd was screaming for more 80Hz immediately on his return to the board, at least he has ears.

Yeah, a feedback eliminator could work, but the club doesn't own one, and neither do I. A parametric EQ should work fine though. At the last gig, I used the one in my Ashly preamp to notch the problem frequency out of my stage rig, worked great. If I sent a post-EQ DI signal to the board, the problem would be gone, I'll bet. Whatever I do will be a compromise, so maybe that's the best answer to that part of the puzzle, right there.

this is just me, but this sounds like the FoH guy (or band leader) responsibility to pay for extra gear, but you going out of your way to "get the job done" is very noble!

Nah, I'm the resident techno-geek around here, plus it's an excuse to improve the sound system over there. If they decide they need to buy a parametric or two, I know someone who has an extra he'd let go.

hmm... interesting. great thread btw!

Well, I was hoping to kick things off here with a thread a lot of people might relate to. I've only been playing EUB since last March, and all my other gigs have been easy street as far as sound reinforcement. I'm really happy that there's a dedicated EUB forum now. It's cool being a rookie again, lots of opportunity to learn some new things.

------------Charlie Escher