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Double Bass Examples of great bluegrass rhythm guitar?

Hi gang,

Despite my band's non-traditional approach to bluegrass, we'd like to encourage our acoustic guitar player to take a more conventional approach to rhythm guitar.

He currently strikes the lower strings with great vigor :rolleyes:, probably from years of accompanying himself while singing. It's a great way to add interest to solo guitar, but in a band setting it muddies the low end and neglects the lovely ringing notes to be had on the higher strings.

He also likes to add extraneous melodic fills when the other string players in the band (fiddle, slide guitar, mandolin) take solos. This has effect of weakening the groove, particularly when the mando chop is absent.

Can you suggest recordings that offer examples of driving-but-tasteful bluegrass rhythm guitar? Exemplary players?

Thanks!

Marc
 
Jimmy Martin? Ah, not so much for me, at least.

Not the clown show Jimmy Martin Bob, the killer singer and best rhythm guitar player Monroe ever had Jimmy Martin. Listen to Bill's records from the fifties with Martin on them - hands down the most powerful vocal duet. 'Lord Protect My Soul', 'River of Death', 'Uncle Pen', 'I'll Meet You in Church Sunday Morning' - they feature Bill's best because he was being pushed by his best guitarist/lead singer.

As always, YMMV but if you haven't listened to those cuts, you're missing out. :thumbsup:
 
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Thanks everyone! These examples will be really useful when talking with our guitar player. That round-up by Barry Bales was a goldmine, and confirmed many of your great recommendations.

@Holdsg: No trouble with our KFC "takeover" -- we were in and out in about 5 minutes. The manager did threaten to call the police, which is why we're moving pretty quickly at the end of the video. :)

For those whose curiosity is piqued:

 
Not the clown show Jimmy Martin Bob, the killer singer and best rhythm guitar player Monroe ever had Jimmy Martin. Listen to Bill's records from the fifties with Martin on them - hands down the most powerful vocal duet. 'Lord Protect My Soul', 'River of Death', 'Uncle Pen', 'I'll Meet You in Church Sunday Morning' - they feature Bill's best because he was being pushed by his best guitarist/lead singer.

As always, YMMV but if you haven't listened to those cuts, you're missing out. :thumbsup:

Jake,
I think you are probably right about the earlier Jimmy Martin stuff. When I used to seem him live back in the late 80s and early 90s he was already bitter and pretty self-centered. I guess bitter because he always thought he was overlooked by commercial country. But I can't fault his singing, if that traditional style is what moves a person.

And here's another vote for Brian Sutton, as well.
 
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+1 for Del

I named my son Del. not for his guitar playing though. Just a good name.

I was at the city winery on Tuesday and saw Del and David Grisman.


What a show!

It was so great because during the first couple songs I was talking about how great a guitar player he was though he doesn't play leads. He has the best runs and turnarounds that are so fitting with the music they play. Then, one song later, David was saying the exact same thing! He also mentioned Lester and Jimmy Martin. The cool part was that he wrote a song called the "G Run Blues". It was an instrumental that showcased all of Del's runs and turnarounds. It was so cool. I hope they put it up on YouTube.

So... When you get a chance, catch the Del McCoury Band. Try to not watch Jason or Ronnie for a few seconds and watch Del. He is doing some great stuff and he hangs with the best bluegrassers alive! Not bad for 75!
 
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Neddy: Del McCoury was on an LP with Kenny Baker (Portrait of a Bluegrass Fiddler on Country Records) recorded in 1968. To hear Del's backup and runs is a lesson for any rhythm guitar player. He just punches the runs in behind Kenny...and it is so right!
Another great rhythm guitar player was that ol' thumb strummer Bob Paisley. He knew how to add the perfect run at the right time.
I'm not taking anything away from the newer fella's like the incredible Bryan Sutton (my favourite) but Jimmy Martin,Doc Watson, Riley Puckett, Bob Paisley, Clarence White, Charlie Waller and especially Del McCoury set the standard for rhythm guitar many years ago. Back then the music was much simpler but even so, they all stood out because of their playing.
 
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Tell him to listen to the pioneers.
Some have been mentioned like Del, Jimmy Martin, Larry Sparks.
But nobody has yet mentioned Lester Flatt, Carter Stanley, or Jim McReynolds.

Im puzzled by the OP tho. In my experience usually the prob with guitar players attempting bluegrass is they tend to throw in too much extraneous strumming and fills and do not place enough emphasis on well timed solid bass notes on the downbeat.
 
As far as players I echo what many others said, especially regarding Del's rhythm skills. After watching your video, very cool song and performance by the way, I'd say he's playing Barre chords throughout which makes it very hard to do the traditional "Boom-chick". I play at an open "pick" on a regular basis. When non-bluegrass guitarists join us they often play more "Strummy" than "Boom-Chick-y" if that makes sense. That Boom-chick gives the playing a little space because there is not a constant guitar chord ringing and if done right gives the song some drive or punch. Generally most BG guitarists are mainly playing chords with some open strings. The cowboy chords if you will. Many learn I-IV-V and the associated minors in the G and C positions inside and out and try to use those shapes no matter which key. This is part of the reason they are so hooked on using capos, to take advantage of those open chord tones. Many guitarists I play with capo up 1 step to play a song in the key of D from a C position, despite how easy it is to play D,G, and A. In most other genres players would consider capoing for the keys of D and A silly or overkill but it is done a lot in this genre. This might not be the best example, but it looked like that song was in G-minor, which I would probably gravitate toward a Barre myself in any other genre of music. If the tune was mainly Gm, Cm, Dm he might consider capoing on 3 and playing out of open Em and Am open positions for the I and IV chords. Another option would be to play an open G with a Bb switched out for B note either on the third or fifth string, admittedly harder, but a chord shape Jimmy Page and Neil Young have often used. That way the open position Dm is still there for the V chord. Like I said the key of G minor might not be the best example. In general when I play BG rhythm guitar I am holding down the low end with the bass player, notes the fiddle, mandolin and banjo don't have, by playing the One and Five low tones, usually single notes on the 4th, 5th and 6th string, on the 1 and 3 beats and mini-strums (the 3 or 4 high strings as a group) on the 2 and 4 beats. I would also add that many bluegrass guitarists have their guitars set up with slightly high action and heavier strings, medium gauge (13-56-ish being the heaviest by most manufacturers. I don't know why they are not called Heavy) to get that punch and ring. I actually keep my old Alvarez strung up with 12's and standard action for all types of playing and fingerpicking and my Martin D-18 with 13-56 strings and what I'd call medium-high action for Bluegrass mode. I came to playing Bluegrass with other musicians mostly in the last decade but I have been listening to it for 35 years +/- not counting the Beverly Hillbillies era. I play some guitar, bass, mandolin and lots of banjo. As a long time Rock and Roller, user of the whole neck, using any chord shape and noodler with Jazz and Swing, the Bluegrass methods took some getting used to but it's a system that does have some great sonic results and that "traditional" sound no matter what the material. I actually like playing Led Zeppelin, Tom Petty, U2, etc... in a Bluegrass mode. To be honest I thought that some of these traditional ways were a form of laziness or stubbornness, since I could play at least 5 different positions of a G or C or D chord between the open position and twelfth fret but, as with many other things in life, once I actually did it for awhile it started making sense and feeling and sounding right. If you watch videos of Del McCoury, Brian Sutton (when he is in rhythm mode otherwise all bets are off), etc... you will probably recognize a lot of these techniques. Of course the hard part might be laying these ideas on him as in "Can you change your approach to playing in a major way?". As somebody who has been in bands I sincerely wish you "Good luck".
 
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If Im playing guitar in a bluegrass jam and theres another guitar or more I'll do what the other guy(s) are not to the extent possible.
For example if the key is A or D and the other guy is capoed at 2, I'll stay open. Or if another guy is doing that, I would prob just chuck bar chords on the backbeat with the mandolin player on the lower strings. Or possibly play nothing but fills when I get an open space.
 
I like Jimmy Martin, but sometimes it's hard for everyone to get on the same page when he adds that extra ninth (or 10th, or 11th) measure in at the end of an 8 bar progression... you get the hard-core jimmy martin fans who want to add it in to pay homage, but then when not everyone is paying attention it throws in a monkey wrench into things.

I really agree with what Doug said though. If you want it to sound more like traditional BG rhythm then get him to start by capoing up and play everything out of G position. It makes it easier to mute your rhythm chords which then gives more room for other instruments to fill.

I also really like doing what Whit was talking about, capoing different than the other guitarist and then playing out of some 'non-bluegrass' position, but that gets away from the more traditional sound and away your original question of how to make it sound more like traditional BG rhythm. I would not recommend someone start using non-standard capo positions if you want it to sound 'traditional'. Capo so you play out of G or C position. As Doug mentioned, for Gm, capo 3 and play out of Em position works good.... Which kind of doesn't jive with what was discussed above, because then you basically are playing Barre chords, but bluegrass songs in minor keys are a bit different and sometimes you want the lower guitar strings ringing more I guess? I think a lot of it has to do with which strings end up getting muted in between rhythm strums. I learned most of this by watching what others do. You almost never see most of the players mentioned above playing rhythm with rock-n-roll style barre chords.

If you want a good example of how to play what I consider 'good rhythm', though not necessarily in the 'traditional' bluegrass style (you mentioned your band is not really that traditional), check out some Chris Stapleton era Steel Drivers. That guy can play mountains of rhythm by knowing when to not play at all. I also really like his use of DADGAD tuning for rhythm guitar. From the Gm example above, you could capo DADGAD on 5 and play DADGAD D positon, (which is always kind of minor-ish in that tuning..)... Really wish Chris had not left the Steel Drivers...
 
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I have been fourtunate enough to have worked with some of the greats in the Bluegrass field and Jimmy Martin was capable of playing some of the best rhythm guitar ever,,he was really a genius when it came to music,, now some of his other ways were not so keen,, but you couldn't beat that right hand when he was "On",,#2 Charlie Collins this is a name many have never heard, Charlie worked for many years with Roy Acuff but was a fiddler first and with his knowlage of fiddle tunes he soon developed a rep as a A+ guitarist,, he shows up on 100s of recordings through out the 70s and 80s,#3 and close to Collins simply because he worked along side of Collins for many years is banjoist Charlie Cushman,, Charlie worked for 15+ yrs for Mike Snider in the Opryland park and at the Opry,
#3 I just recently in the past few years got the chance to work with this great,Del McCoury ,,now Del is the closest thing to the Lester Flatt, Charlie Monroe, Clyde Moody stly playing,, even though he uses a flat pick,,Del can throw those bass runs like no one else alive.
 
… I also really like doing what Whit was talking about, capoing different than the other guitarist and then playing out of some 'non-bluegrass' position, but that gets away from the more traditional sound and away your original question of how to make it sound more like traditional BG rhythm. ...

Sorry to stray off topic, but the best use of non-standard bluegrass capo use I ever witnessed was Dan Crary playing "Foggy Mountain Special" in G with the capo at the 3rd fret; it is a blues tune, after all.