Double Bass Exercises for controlling bow speed?

[Alexis Duntov]

I recently video recorded myself playing the largo from Eccles G minor sonata, and I noticed that my bow speed is all over the place. During practice today, I tried to keep it at one speed and to use retakes and/or recovery to give myself enough bow without having to change bow speed. Anyone got any exercises or video tips for this? Thanks!

 

[AGCurry]

Isn't it normal to use different bow speeds? I mean, having to hold a 2-measure low note is gonna be way different from quick high notes, right? Bow speed is one of our main variables, so why not vary?

 

[jallenbass]

Can we see your video?

 

[AGCurry]

That said, I just received Volume 1 of the "Incredibly Useful Exercises" series. One of those exercises (it's been posted here a while back) is called "Long Tones," and you set a metronome and play notes of duration from short to long, being careful to use all the bow for each. It's meant to teach awareness of how to gauge and plan bow speed when playing.

 

[Tom Lane]

Aimed at the jazz audience but I think it has general usefulness, I found this book by @John Goldsby very helpful:

https://smile.amazon.com/Jazz-Bowin...ywords=john+goldsby+bow&qid=1619568377&sr=8-2

 

[Don Kasper]

This page in Simandl will help you manage your bow speed(s)....or else.
IMFO.

 

[AGCurry]

This page in Simandl will help you manage your bow speed(s)....or else.
IMFO.
View attachment 4249893

Ah yes, the "final exam" of Simandl Book One!

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Funny thing, I do Dennis Whittaker’s long tones exercise everyday for 7.5 minutes and I’m currently working through Simandl p.69 versions 3,17, and 24.

I can’t post the video. It’s too horrifying. Let me try to produce a better take and I’ll get back to you.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Isn't it normal to use different bow speeds? I mean, having to hold a 2-measure low note is gonna be way different from quick high notes, right? Bow speed is one of our main variables, so why not vary?

I guess what I mean is increasing increasing the speed in the context of one bow, which naturally has the effect of increasing the volume in an unintentional and undesirable way.

 

[Dogfightgiggle]

Shot in the dark, but it may improve if you focus on the weight part of the weight/speed/placement equation.

Too much weight and the sound grinds, maybe you’re speeding up mid-stroke to combat this?

For me it’s been easy to apply weight but challenging to withhold it.

 

[garrett2]

Do you have Strokin' and Zimmerman's Contemporary Concept of Bowing?

 

[SRL]

I guess what I mean is increasing increasing the speed in the context of one bow, which naturally has the effect of increasing the volume in an unintentional and undesirable way.

A teacher of mine would have me play and stop me whenever he heard this. In the end I see it almost as an ear training. You have to focus your attention on the sound you are producing and listen out for anything unintended (like accents, crescendo....).

 

[Wasnex]

I guess what I mean is increasing increasing the speed in the context of one bow, which naturally has the effect of increasing the volume in an unintentional and undesirable way.

The trick is to learn to increase bow speed without increasing volume. Consider bow pressure, bow position relative to the bridge, and bow speed. All of these can be used to manage volume.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Do you have Strokin' and Zimmerman's Contemporary Concept of Bowing?

I have both but have not cracked them yet. I’ve been working through Simandl 30 etudes with my teacher and also with the aid of Gaelen McCormick’s videos of the same. Also working through her book “Mastering the bow”.

 

[David Potts]

Hi, if you are only concerned about controlling a succession of alternate bows to give dead level sounds and no expression then perhaps consider this. I lifted it from an old post (see The One Minute Bow, 11/14/2018). It calms me down and encourages breathing naturally. I do this to relax before starting my practice. It sort of tunes me in.

I believe there was a violin teacher, the Abbe Son File, a long time ago. My version of what he advocated is as follows -

In the normal bow hold place, (with no technique) hold the bow stick right out on your fingertips (don't hang your fingers over the stick onto the frog). With slack relaxed fingers, wrist, arm and shoulder hang the bow down lightly onto a string (say D or A) and draw it as slowly as you can sideways, just making a faint sound that is even. There can be a little bit of Morse Code at first until you get used to this. Breathe normally (I used to hold my breathe then gasp like I'd been swimming under water!!). With a little bit of practice you can make one bow stroke last 45 seconds or more (there was a violinint who claimed 2 1/2 minutes per bow?).

Do this for several up and down bows on different strings before dropping back into your normal bow hold. You'll find that you can't bow as slowly or softly but you can be very relaxed as you draw a smooth endless-quality sound with long bows. Note that the thinner the string the faster the bow moves to match the faster vibrations if the usual range of contact point is kept constant. To counter this effect experiment try adjusting the contact point closer to the bridge, especially on the G string. Perhaps look too at my comments in a past thread, BOW ARM WEIGHT (goodgig).

However, to play expressively with phrasing you have to also control varying the speed and dynamic within the length of bow strokes. The basic tools at our disposal are obviously Bow Speed, Bow Weight and Distance of Contact Point from the Bridge but that is only the start of a long journey with lots of experimenting to do. Somewhere to begin is what I believe is called Solfege (correct me if I am wrong please). There are six basic exercises (or more?) for you to examine -
(1) Down bow starts slow and soft then accelerates to fast and loud, adding in a little more weight to control the string vibrations. Returning up bow does the same. The effect is most dramatic if both the other variables are added in, increasing weight and moving the contact point.
(2) Loud - soft, loud - soft with alternate bows
(3) Soft - loud on the Down bow going to Loud - soft on the Up bow (the more common "hairpin" sign?)
(4) Loud - soft on Down towards Soft - loud on Up (the reverse)
(5) Soft- loud - soft in one bow followed by the same in the next.
(6) Loud - soft - loud connecting to loud - soft - loud (the reverse)

Many hours of happy hunting and keep safe!

DP

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Hi, if you are only concerned about controlling a succession of alternate bows to give dead level sounds and no expression then perhaps consider this. I lifted it from an old post (see The One Minute Bow, 11/14/2018). It calms me down and encourages breathing naturally. I do this to relax before starting my practice. It sort of tunes me in.

I believe there was a violin teacher, the Abbe Son File, a long time ago. My version of what he advocated is as follows -

In the normal bow hold place, (with no technique) hold the bow stick right out on your fingertips (don't hang your fingers over the stick onto the frog). With slack relaxed fingers, wrist, arm and shoulder hang the bow down lightly onto a string (say D or A) and draw it as slowly as you can sideways, just making a faint sound that is even. There can be a little bit of Morse Code at first until you get used to this. Breathe normally (I used to hold my breathe then gasp like I'd been swimming under water!!). With a little bit of practice you can make one bow stroke last 45 seconds or more (there was a violinint who claimed 2 1/2 minutes per bow?).

Do this for several up and down bows on different strings before dropping back into your normal bow hold. You'll find that you can't bow as slowly or softly but you can be very relaxed as you draw a smooth endless-quality sound with long bows. Note that the thinner the string the faster the bow moves to match the faster vibrations if the usual range of contact point is kept constant. To counter this effect experiment try adjusting the contact point closer to the bridge, especially on the G string. Perhaps look too at my comments in a past thread, BOW ARM WEIGHT (goodgig).

However, to play expressively with phrasing you have to also control varying the speed and dynamic within the length of bow strokes. The basic tools at our disposal are obviously Bow Speed, Bow Weight and Distance of Contact Point from the Bridge but that is only the start of a long journey with lots of experimenting to do. Somewhere to begin is what I believe is called Solfege (correct me if I am wrong please). There are six basic exercises (or more?) for you to examine -
(1) Down bow starts slow and soft then accelerates to fast and loud, adding in a little more weight to control the string vibrations. Returning up bow does the same. The effect is most dramatic if both the other variables are added in, increasing weight and moving the contact point.
(2) Loud - soft, loud - soft with alternate bows
(3) Soft - loud on the Down bow going to Loud - soft on the Up bow (the more common "hairpin" sign?)
(4) Loud - soft on Down towards Soft - loud on Up (the reverse)
(5) Soft- loud - soft in one bow followed by the same in the next.
(6) Loud - soft - loud connecting to loud - soft - loud (the reverse)

Many hours of happy hunting and keep safe!

DP

Many thanks for this David. Your responses are always so thoughtful and expansive.

 

[Andy Mopley]

Hi, if you are only concerned about controlling a succession of alternate bows to give dead level sounds and no expression then perhaps consider this. I lifted it from an old post (see The One Minute Bow, 11/14/2018). It calms me down and encourages breathing naturally. I do this to relax before starting my practice. It sort of tunes me in.

I believe there was a violin teacher, the Abbe Son File, a long time ago. My version of what he advocated is as follows -

In the normal bow hold place, (with no technique) hold the bow stick right out on your fingertips (don't hang your fingers over the stick onto the frog). With slack relaxed fingers, wrist, arm and shoulder hang the bow down lightly onto a string (say D or A) and draw it as slowly as you can sideways, just making a faint sound that is even. There can be a little bit of Morse Code at first until you get used to this. Breathe normally (I used to hold my breathe then gasp like I'd been swimming under water!!). With a little bit of practice you can make one bow stroke last 45 seconds or more (there was a violinint who claimed 2 1/2 minutes per bow?).

Do this for several up and down bows on different strings before dropping back into your normal bow hold. You'll find that you can't bow as slowly or softly but you can be very relaxed as you draw a smooth endless-quality sound with long bows. Note that the thinner the string the faster the bow moves to match the faster vibrations if the usual range of contact point is kept constant. To counter this effect experiment try adjusting the contact point closer to the bridge, especially on the G string. Perhaps look too at my comments in a past thread, BOW ARM WEIGHT (goodgig).

However, to play expressively with phrasing you have to also control varying the speed and dynamic within the length of bow strokes. The basic tools at our disposal are obviously Bow Speed, Bow Weight and Distance of Contact Point from the Bridge but that is only the start of a long journey with lots of experimenting to do. Somewhere to begin is what I believe is called Solfege (correct me if I am wrong please). There are six basic exercises (or more?) for you to examine -
(1) Down bow starts slow and soft then accelerates to fast and loud, adding in a little more weight to control the string vibrations. Returning up bow does the same. The effect is most dramatic if both the other variables are added in, increasing weight and moving the contact point.
(2) Loud - soft, loud - soft with alternate bows
(3) Soft - loud on the Down bow going to Loud - soft on the Up bow (the more common "hairpin" sign?)
(4) Loud - soft on Down towards Soft - loud on Up (the reverse)
(5) Soft- loud - soft in one bow followed by the same in the next.
(6) Loud - soft - loud connecting to loud - soft - loud (the reverse)

Many hours of happy hunting and keep safe!

DP

I suppose there is something to be said about the amount of rosin on the bow. This may be implied, but I found it can also influence the efficacy of the strokes David has described above.

 

[eerbrev]

I think bassists overuse rosin, generally, to compensate for not using their weight effectively. Yes, there is a "rosin-y sound" that is currently popular in America especially, but most people use so much rosin I can't even use their equipment.

With a little bit of practice you can make one bow stroke last 45 seconds or more (there was a violinint who claimed 2 1/2 minutes per bow?).

[...]

However, to play expressively with phrasing you have to also control varying the speed and dynamic within the length of bow strokes. The basic tools at our disposal are obviously Bow Speed, Bow Weight and Distance of Contact Point from the Bridge but that is only the start of a long journey with lots of experimenting to do. Somewhere to begin is what I believe is called Solfege (correct me if I am wrong please). There are six basic exercises (or more?) for you to examine -
(1) Down bow starts slow and soft then accelerates to fast and loud, adding in a little more weight to control the string vibrations. Returning up bow does the same. The effect is most dramatic if both the other variables are added in, increasing weight and moving the contact point.
(2) Loud - soft, loud - soft with alternate bows
(3) Soft - loud on the Down bow going to Loud - soft on the Up bow (the more common "hairpin" sign?)
(4) Loud - soft on Down towards Soft - loud on Up (the reverse)
(5) Soft- loud - soft in one bow followed by the same in the next.
(6) Loud - soft - loud connecting to loud - soft - loud (the reverse)

Many hours of happy hunting and keep safe!

DP

|

I think the 2 1/2 minute bow was Galamian! That's a claim I've heard before. Having worked with some students of his (and students of his students) I'd believe it. It looks like a statue practicing Tai Chi.

To add to these good exercises that David has supplied, I'd also recommend something my HIP bass teacher had me do.

F major scale, 2 octaves, 60bpm. start with a double whole note (8 beats), and then progressively use smaller intervals ( dotted whole, whole, dotted half, half, quarter etc) up and down the scale. Sounds simple, right? here's the trick -

Use the whole bow for every note.

You learn a lot from this exercise. How to use a faster bow with good sound, sure, but also how to just move from one end of the bow to the other quickly. You also learn that not all the sounds you use in practice will end up in the performance - using a whole bow for an eighth note is a very specific sound that is basically never called for in any setting, but knowing how to cover that distance is really useful for retakes and learning how to plan out your bow length (i.e how much bow to use for each note).

Going back to the original post, your bow speed SHOULD vary, but it should vary in the right places and for the right reasons. "Oh crap I'm running out of bow", and "oh crap I need to get back to the frog" are just not good reasons!

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Can we see your video?

Here it is

Dropbox - Eccles,4.29.21.mov - Simplify your life

 

[jallenbass]

That looks and sounds really pretty good. I really enjoy your playing. There are a couple of spots where you use a lot of bow on two consecutive notes and they're both louder than what surrounds them. They are followed by a long note. Maybe look at staying where you are on the bow for those two. The other thing I noticed is that you never really get all the way out to the tip effectively making the bow shorter than it is. That could be part of why you feel like you're running out of bow.