Experience Making Drummers Better

[LBS-bass]

There are tons of threads about what to do with a shoes-in-the-dryer drummer with a lot of varying advice about how to work with them, etc.

I tend to be of the mindset that all instrumentalists fundamentally need a lot of practice time on their instruments to get good. That doesn't mean you don't help someone out, but you need to know that what you're stepping into isn't going to be an overnight fix.

But I'm wondering if others have had good experiences with sitting down with a poor or green drummer and talking it through, making recordings, working one-on-one, doing all the things we generally hear about. Have you done this? Did it work out? How long did you invest time in it?

My personal experiences have been mostly disappointing; one drummer I agreed to work with has been coming along over the course of a year; I don't coach her, per se, but I was brought in to provide some stability. She's improved about as much as I'd expect someone who practices a lot to improve in that time. I don't know if my influence has been much help. She does work hard, but I wouldn't expect her to be brilliant at this for a few more years at least.

What about everyone else? I don't want to hear about what you think should happen. I'd like to hear about what did happen when you did some of the things that are commonly suggested.

 

[turf3]

Remember, the light bulb has to WANT to change...

 

[LBS-bass]

Remember, the light bulb has to WANT to change...

That can be a big part of the problem too. Sometimes people don't realize they have deficits, or they do but they don't want their nose rubbed in them.

The drummer I'm working with knows she's relatively green, and I don't feel the need to flag her on her mistakes. I'm just there to bring some stability in and give her something to lean on when she has questions, needs help counting through something, etc. But, as I said, she practices a lot and clearly wants to get better at this. I don't expect miracles from her and I probably won't stick around forever, but it's nice to be able to be helpful to someone, the way others were helpful to me when I was new.

 

[AGCurry]

I've not had that experience with a "poor" drummer, but I have helped drummers learn styles.

Playing in a western-swing band in the 1970s; our regular drummer caught mononucleosis and had to take a month off. We had gigs booked on the road. The drummer we could get (and convince to leave home for a month for not much money!) had been playing modern jazz, so he was used to using the bass drum as an accent. The first few nights were challenging, but we had several conversations on how to modify his playing for much more vintage sound. He got it.

The most common issue I've seen is that drummers who play mostly rock don't often swing well, or play "vintage" genres well. As @turf3 says, if they have the desire to learn, they can get there (assuming requisite talent).

 

[JRA]

What about everyone else? I don't want to hear about what you think should happen. I'd like to hear about what did happen when you did some of the things that are commonly suggested.

most (but not all!) of the drummers i've had the pleasure of playing with have been top-notch, and several of them were teaching me, and i'll be forever grateful for those timely and important music lessons!

however, i've had one experience in the fairly recent past where the drummer came from a rock background and had very little experience playing swing and blues/jazz-style shuffles. he was a 'muscular' player with an equally muscular set of tubs, so the goal was to impart some swing knowledge/experience and some less rambunctious/heavy playing. he could play what he knew, competently, and he had good time.

we worked together, just bass and drums, regularly, for 6-8 months. his version of coordinating his limbs was so steeped in the rock music tradition that he lacked independence when trying to play quietly --- kind of all-or-nothing "i have to play louder to do that." but even then: just not enough independence to be convincing.

i also hooked him up with a drum teacher and even volunteered to play bass at/for some of his lessons. he was on board with the idea but i think the teacher was intimidated by it. he took lessons for several months.

he got better! but: it was too little too late --- the ensemble members were not keen to allow him any more time trying to get hip to the music at hand, i was growing tired of the conflicts/complaints, and in the end: we let him go. he was a terrific human being and i'm sure his experience with us will serve him well whether or not he plays any of that music in the future.

all i got!

 

[mike o]

I’ve tried a few times with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, every time it failed. At my age now, I wouldn’t try. Either you have it or you don’t.

 

[pcake]

in my decades playing and singing, i've tried to help out several drummers (and several singers) who weren't pulling it off on their own. none of them improved. some put in some effort, but either didn't have the ear or the timing or the patience. most were actually perfectly happy with their drumming, and they only agreed to spend time working on it because the band wasn't happy or they thought it would be fun.

none of them practiced on their own. a drummer i used to play with who had no kit practiced on a suitcase and phone books, and he got better all the time, so improvement can happen even without actual drums. but he was motivated and loved playing drums. none of the bad drummers were both.

none of them listened to the songs throughout the day to learn the changes they routinely missed. they always ALWAYS promised they would, and they never did, but that misses the point. if you want to get better, surely you can listen to a couple songs three times a day...

most were totally happy to play off tempo with messed up fills they came back late from, and lots of speeding up and down or drumming where the beat wasn't. in the heads of most of those drummers, they were rock stars and having so much fun. one, who was a friend of mine, was fired from a band because of his timing, went on to form his own band, and is happily playing in a bar every week about an hour from here, and neither the patrons nor the band care that he's always off time. he hasn't improved, but he's happy.

and i'm happy, too, because i haven't played with him in years

 

[buldog5151bass]

I played in one band with a weak drummer. I met with him several times to work on things, but not much improvement. I think too many people think they can easily become a "good drummer". Just because there isn't much of a melodic component doesn't mean you need to work as much as with any other instrument.

 

[Goatrope]

I’ve mentioned this in several of the “drummer threads”.

I went through a period of managing several subs during our drummer’s back surgery lead-up and post-op recovery.

Our drummer always tended to be too fast, and I’d point that out quite frequently. His meter became more difficult to control leading up to his time away, then was all out of whack afterwards.

We’re loving brothers, so we can criticize openly without anger, but we could tell it was taking a mental toll on all of us.

We began working with an app called “Live BPM”, which our drummer uses as a speedometer. He didn’t obsess over it, but used the graph for objective feedback regarding tempo. This way, it’s not us criticizing him, it’s just data.

This approach has settled his nerves, and he’s made great improvement, and I have to say his tempo rarely gets my attention anymore.

So, to sum it up, we were patient, kind, and worked with objective data to get him back.

We’re all happier.

Best of luck to you with your efforts!

 

[sean_on_bass]

When i was starting to pickup jazz bass i started a trio with a couple friends, drums and piano. We were all green, but they were much greener when it came to sounding authentic in the genre. I tried to coach them during weekly rehearsals, gave homework, even wrote up a sheet of guidelines for how to approach tunes. This went on for a couple years. Finally it was clear that they just weren't progressing because they weren't practicing and challenging themselves at home. They didn't want it bad enough to put in the work on their own, and their two hours a week with me wasn't going to cut it. I moved on to other projects and have now played 100+ gigs and keep going. The drummer no longer plays at all. The piano player stuck with it and has actually progressed quite a bit, but still lacks the ability to freely improvise and is too stiff for what i want to be doing.

 

[David Pinton]

I'm playing with a drummer who was used to follow the guitar player in a prior blues rock trio.
We've now been playing as a five piece blues band now : bass+vocals, guitar+vocals, guitar, harmonica, drums for 4 years. It has been a constant struggle to get him to play a steady beat.
He definitly lacks authority. He is a very nice guy all around but his doesn't exude confidence. However we all consider that the band is basically his.
And as I'm singing lead vocals on maybe 70 percents of the songs, I can't really say that it's the drumming that's holding us back.
Back to the point, we managed to improve by working together. We got rid of the constant speeding up which is quite an achievement. Just by stopping the song as soon as it started to speed up. Using a metronome as reference then we discovered livebpm which is so great to check after the fact and settles disputes.
I'm passing along every tip I come by as I'm practicing drums as well. Rob "beatdown" Brown's YouTube channel is great !
And I keep bugging him to always practice with a click.
We will restart rehearsals soon I hope for the best. The band members are in their 60s, 70s and 80s. I'm 41 I can find another band when this one stops but for now I'm learning plenty of songs and focusing on my singing and playing.
I will post later about how I improved my own drumming.

 

[lokikallas]

Life is too short to play with crappy drummers. It feels like running with a ball and chain.

 

[Sixgunn]

I'm gonna do a thread on herding cats.

 

[DWBass]

I've only played with one drummer who got better with experience. He still rushes though. I don't think he keeps an internal clock/meter. I have to remind him of the tempo. But he's gotten a lot better than when I first met him over 10 years ago.

 

[sonic 7]

They either got it, or they don’t.

 

[PhatBottomBass1]

...and a metronome!

"How do ya get to Carnegie Hall?"

Learn How To Play The Drum Rudiments!

A band is only as good as it's drummer!

 

[Bunk McNulty]

It is not my job to improve a drummer, just as it is not a drummer's job to improve my bass playing.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

It really comes down to two things - innate ability/potential and willingness to practice outside of rehearsal. If you don't notice any difference one practice to the next, it's time to move on. Also if the trajectory of improvement isn't satisfactory, it's time to move on.

 

[LBS-bass]

none of them listened to the songs throughout the day to learn the changes they routinely missed. they always ALWAYS promised they would, and they never did, but that misses the point. if you want to get better, surely you can listen to a couple songs three times a day...

There is another drummer I work with who is working very hard at becoming better, and I'm married to him so I do coach him quite a lot, because he wants me to. This is one of several things I've pointed out to him. His practice habits need to change to incorporate more listening and less "playing along" because you miss so much when you aren't actively listening and can't hear over what you're producing with your instrument. He's beginning to make these changes and it's so much better.

We began working with an app called “Live BPM”, which our drummer uses as a speedometer. He didn’t obsess over it, but used the graph for objective feedback regarding tempo. This way, it’s not us criticizing him, it’s just data.

Same with the drummer I mentioned above. I'm very sensitive to tempo fluctuations and we've been using this app. Last rehearsal he was rock steady. Our lead singer thought that a song was dragging and we were able to play back the record and demonstrate that the drummer was right on tempo, so it saves a lot of arguing over perceptions that are perhaps inaccurate, as well.

When we first started using it, we'd go to hear good bands and he'd pull out his phone to measure the tempos they were playing. I think he really had it in his head that a tempo fluctuation of 2-3 bpm was no big deal and he thought he'd prove to me that the better drummers in town were also varying to that degree. He proved something to himself, instead

It's better when it isn't coming from a person sometimes.

 

[CB3UK]

My situation is unique in that I've played drums longer than I've played bass. Since 98 and 99. Bass is my passion and I've put in infinitely more hours woodshedding on bass over that time, so while I'm serviceable on drums and can sit in and all that, it's not my love nor something I would want to do in a band setting because I'm going to be better than any other bassist we can get around here, and that will bother me. Whereas my drum background allows me to speak to the drummer in their language, and when need be, sit down and play what I want them to play if it needs to be that nuanced. I've only ever done that to explain what I'm hearing or as a suggestion, not "hey, here's what you should be playing." If I have to go that far with a drummer I don't stick around. I play for fun and having big gaps in the talent isn't fun.