john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
do you orchestral/symphony folks that play 5'ers ever run into any prejudice from the 4 string players? or any other folks in the symphony?
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Double Bass Extensions or extra strings?
- Thread starter bbates77
- Start date
The other bassists seem mostly intrigued or bewildered. The other members of the orchestra never notice the bass section except when we screw up, and then they blame us all.
Not prejudice, more like awe, usually from the wind players. The cellists are a bit funny though, but then they have their back to us so they can get away with ignoring us without looking so rude.
I met a really nice contrabassoonist recently, we discussed which passages we transposed down the octave for the fun of it in Brahms 3rd, and whether we thought the conductor knew what we were doing. The contrabassoon can reach a low A, whereas my 5-string only reaches a low B.
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
Ok, here it is in a nutshell post from me after about 3 years of hands-on research.
On the 5ths, yes I have seen Utube vids of Red Mitchell playing. Although he sounds great from a solo view point, he is no Ray Brown when it comes to being the 'boss' when 'walking the dog'. Give me Ray any day of the week. You can't hit the notes he does on the bottom if you are in 5ths. You need that E and A string (di-ka-ta-dongg) to wake up the guy sleeping in his drink sitting at the front table!
On the 5-String set-up I played mainly 2 Basses in the last 3 years. One of them was a Pollmann belonging to a player recently retired from the Met'. It was set-up just fine and I did a few concerts with it as well as several rehearsals. The only problem with the Bass to me was the speaking of the Low B. In fast passages it just didn't speak quick enough or clear enough for me. The other 4-strings were fine. I played parts of the Dragonetti 1st movement with no problem at all. For Orchestra, I did fumble a bit to play on the correct string as I did 'miss' once in awhile being new to it. The other Bass I played was a large Hungarian Bass that Arnold converted for me and we basically matched the set-up as the Pollmann was in the shop during the conversion and final set-up. As a matter of fact (and you can ask Arnold about it) when my Bass was ready, we pulled the Pollmann out of the rack and compared them. We even had a 5-string Duel playing both 5s at the same time comparing them side to side, face to face. It was fun. I won't mention who won the Duel or if there was a winner. I will let Arnold answer that if asked..lol
On the Extension I find two advantages and only one disadvantages where as for me I had just the opposite, -2/+1 on the 5er.
The three main points (set-up aside) that I look at are the following;
1) clear speaking lows and good attack at fast tempos
2) ease of playing quickly in pieces like Beethoven and Brandenburg but mainly Beethoven.
3) hitting the right string period!
On #1, the E/C speaks clearer than any B I have tried. This includes Spiro, Jaegar, Permanent and Flatchrome. On the E/Cs you have many more choices to match your style, match your string sound and match your Bass. I vote for the Ext. for #1.
On #2, I find it easier for fast moving passages to play on the 5er than fingering the Ext which I am doing this month playing the Storm in Beeth. 6th. I can actually played it and be passable. I think between the shifting difficulties of the Ext and the speaking problem of the B it becomes either/or. For #2 overall I have to give an edged vote though for the 5er as that's what it was made for.
On #3, Hitting the right string it a real problem. You can get away with a weak attach or some intonation problems on the Ext at various speeds but you can't be a 4th above or below the written note! Also, after playing the Beeth. 3, 5, 6, and 9th in the last 3 years I must admit that the low notes are only sporadic throughout the Music. Most of the time I am playing on 4 strings and most of the low notes can be fixed in the arpeggio passages with the chromatic latches. So, in comparing overall convenience for the occasional 'going down' my vote goes to the Chromatic E/C Extension.
Now, to see how the rest or America feels just survey ALL the Basses used in todays professional Orchestras and then listen to the ones with Ext's. vs. 5er's on recordings and see how they fair.
Two more examples I would like to point out;
In playing a run in a Dvorák piece (Sym #4) there is a fast triplet run from 'A' on the g-string down to low D (below the e-string) and then continues to the 'D' in 3rd position on the g-string running down to the low F on the e-string. You Classical guys know the run. For the rest of you, it is in the Zimmerman Excerpt book vol I, pg7, 8th line down FF two bars long (24 notes) ending on the 3rd bar a half note F. I played this piece two years in a row but in different orchestras. I don't recall what I did the first time but without either a 5 or ext then I think I played the low D up an octave either on the a-string to play the octave D or the open d-string. The second time I got the music I had my 5er done but not a Chromatic Extension. I couldn't finger the D quick enough on the fingered Ext I had so I played it on the 5er. Guys, do you know how much 'two handed' real estate you have to cover in a split second when playing the low D on the bb-string (1st finger was easiest) and then jumping to the D on the g-string in 3rd position to continue the triplet pattern? By the time my Bow was moving off the b-string I broke Mach 3 to hit that D in time on the g-string and still I think I was a tad late to the party! Trying the same run/line later when I got my first E/C chromatic made it easier not having to cross as many strings from the low D on the e-string (not bb-string) to the D on the g-string. Fingering is different as you finger the e-string notes G/4, F/1 (or 2), E/1 (fast down shift of playing F/1) and D/open with the Chromatic pre-set. I give this one example having tried it several ways and learning the hard way.
On the Schubert's Trout there are some low notes hit and some octave lows as well like in the Brandenburg. After I had played this twice (once on a regular 4-string playing the lows up an octave and the second time on the 5er) I went to a Chamber Concert and watched Hal Robinson play it using a Chromatic Extension. Like in the Orchestra where all the Basses set the Extensions at the same time as if a written cue, Hal would flip the levers and set the next Low note he would need to play in the Ext. In this method and this is why I prefer the Chromatic latched Ext., your E-string becomes a C-string, C3/Db-string, D-string, D#/Eb-string or just an E-string 'as needed!'
Now, how cool is that?
For me, what I do each time I get a piece of music is to go thru and find all the sub-lows I have to play and mark in pencil at the top of each page what I will need like (E-X, Eb-X, E/C-X, E/D-X, Db/X, etc as needed for the music. Then, I find the spot where I have the most time to 'flip 'n' set' the latches and mark the same so the Bass is ready when I need it. Sometimes, you just have to jump back and finger the notes if it comes up too fast.
Scraping your hand, fingers and knuckles on the G-side Tuners while playing the Extension does come with the territory.
At least one thing is for sure! I don't have a 5th string sitting there collect dust when it's not needed and I don't get confused which string my finger or Bow is on like when I played the 5er.
On the 5ths, yes I have seen Utube vids of Red Mitchell playing. Although he sounds great from a solo view point, he is no Ray Brown when it comes to being the 'boss' when 'walking the dog'. Give me Ray any day of the week. You can't hit the notes he does on the bottom if you are in 5ths. You need that E and A string (di-ka-ta-dongg) to wake up the guy sleeping in his drink sitting at the front table!
On the 5-String set-up I played mainly 2 Basses in the last 3 years. One of them was a Pollmann belonging to a player recently retired from the Met'. It was set-up just fine and I did a few concerts with it as well as several rehearsals. The only problem with the Bass to me was the speaking of the Low B. In fast passages it just didn't speak quick enough or clear enough for me. The other 4-strings were fine. I played parts of the Dragonetti 1st movement with no problem at all. For Orchestra, I did fumble a bit to play on the correct string as I did 'miss' once in awhile being new to it. The other Bass I played was a large Hungarian Bass that Arnold converted for me and we basically matched the set-up as the Pollmann was in the shop during the conversion and final set-up. As a matter of fact (and you can ask Arnold about it) when my Bass was ready, we pulled the Pollmann out of the rack and compared them. We even had a 5-string Duel playing both 5s at the same time comparing them side to side, face to face. It was fun. I won't mention who won the Duel or if there was a winner. I will let Arnold answer that if asked..lol
On the Extension I find two advantages and only one disadvantages where as for me I had just the opposite, -2/+1 on the 5er.
The three main points (set-up aside) that I look at are the following;
1) clear speaking lows and good attack at fast tempos
2) ease of playing quickly in pieces like Beethoven and Brandenburg but mainly Beethoven.
3) hitting the right string period!
On #1, the E/C speaks clearer than any B I have tried. This includes Spiro, Jaegar, Permanent and Flatchrome. On the E/Cs you have many more choices to match your style, match your string sound and match your Bass. I vote for the Ext. for #1.
On #2, I find it easier for fast moving passages to play on the 5er than fingering the Ext which I am doing this month playing the Storm in Beeth. 6th. I can actually played it and be passable. I think between the shifting difficulties of the Ext and the speaking problem of the B it becomes either/or. For #2 overall I have to give an edged vote though for the 5er as that's what it was made for.
On #3, Hitting the right string it a real problem. You can get away with a weak attach or some intonation problems on the Ext at various speeds but you can't be a 4th above or below the written note! Also, after playing the Beeth. 3, 5, 6, and 9th in the last 3 years I must admit that the low notes are only sporadic throughout the Music. Most of the time I am playing on 4 strings and most of the low notes can be fixed in the arpeggio passages with the chromatic latches. So, in comparing overall convenience for the occasional 'going down' my vote goes to the Chromatic E/C Extension.
Now, to see how the rest or America feels just survey ALL the Basses used in todays professional Orchestras and then listen to the ones with Ext's. vs. 5er's on recordings and see how they fair.
Two more examples I would like to point out;
In playing a run in a Dvorák piece (Sym #4) there is a fast triplet run from 'A' on the g-string down to low D (below the e-string) and then continues to the 'D' in 3rd position on the g-string running down to the low F on the e-string. You Classical guys know the run. For the rest of you, it is in the Zimmerman Excerpt book vol I, pg7, 8th line down FF two bars long (24 notes) ending on the 3rd bar a half note F. I played this piece two years in a row but in different orchestras. I don't recall what I did the first time but without either a 5 or ext then I think I played the low D up an octave either on the a-string to play the octave D or the open d-string. The second time I got the music I had my 5er done but not a Chromatic Extension. I couldn't finger the D quick enough on the fingered Ext I had so I played it on the 5er. Guys, do you know how much 'two handed' real estate you have to cover in a split second when playing the low D on the bb-string (1st finger was easiest) and then jumping to the D on the g-string in 3rd position to continue the triplet pattern? By the time my Bow was moving off the b-string I broke Mach 3 to hit that D in time on the g-string and still I think I was a tad late to the party! Trying the same run/line later when I got my first E/C chromatic made it easier not having to cross as many strings from the low D on the e-string (not bb-string) to the D on the g-string. Fingering is different as you finger the e-string notes G/4, F/1 (or 2), E/1 (fast down shift of playing F/1) and D/open with the Chromatic pre-set. I give this one example having tried it several ways and learning the hard way.
On the Schubert's Trout there are some low notes hit and some octave lows as well like in the Brandenburg. After I had played this twice (once on a regular 4-string playing the lows up an octave and the second time on the 5er) I went to a Chamber Concert and watched Hal Robinson play it using a Chromatic Extension. Like in the Orchestra where all the Basses set the Extensions at the same time as if a written cue, Hal would flip the levers and set the next Low note he would need to play in the Ext. In this method and this is why I prefer the Chromatic latched Ext., your E-string becomes a C-string, C3/Db-string, D-string, D#/Eb-string or just an E-string 'as needed!'
Now, how cool is that?
For me, what I do each time I get a piece of music is to go thru and find all the sub-lows I have to play and mark in pencil at the top of each page what I will need like (E-X, Eb-X, E/C-X, E/D-X, Db/X, etc as needed for the music. Then, I find the spot where I have the most time to 'flip 'n' set' the latches and mark the same so the Bass is ready when I need it. Sometimes, you just have to jump back and finger the notes if it comes up too fast.
Scraping your hand, fingers and knuckles on the G-side Tuners while playing the Extension does come with the territory.
At least one thing is for sure! I don't have a 5th string sitting there collect dust when it's not needed and I don't get confused which string my finger or Bow is on like when I played the 5er.
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
For me, it's like listening to Stevie when my Bass comes out of its cover.. "Isn't She Lovely" ...
Invalid Link Removed[Invalid or Expired Link Removed][Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Comments or prejudice? It's music to my ears...
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
I just went thru every Voters Profile and found some information that I would like to share. On the Value of the Poll votes currently I would like to point out that this is a very casual survey at this time.
Findings?
In the 5er/extra strings, 40% of the Voters do not even List a Double Bass in their Profile and only have a Bass Guitar! At least 20% of the Voters don't even have a Profile! Only 40% of the voters have a DB listed in the 5er group of voters. A few of the voters actually play a 5-string Bass so there is some value there weighing in..
On the Ext. side of the votes about 20% of the Voters do not have a DB listed. Maybe 10% have no profile and the remaining 70% have a DB listed.
I think many of the BG players have drifted over here and casted a vote for something other than maybe a DB. Just Maybe!
If I were to do a Poll now (and I have in the past done a few. See post #22 here.) I would specify only those that have played a DB and have tried both a 5er and/or Ext can Vote.
If you don't play the thing, then how would you know which one is better? Can you ask a non-meat eater which cut of steak is better?
I think it's nice to see ones casual opinions but when you ask the Principal of an Orchestra which of the two are better and then you ask a 10th grader who plays a Bass Guitar the same question, would you consider them equal votes in a Poll of which is better?
You might as well ask a Violin Player which Pickup to use in a bass or what Amp to buy.
Color is always important.
My Father (RIP) once told me that you always bring your wife along when buying a car...
So she can pic the 'color'!I posted this back some time ago:
and received a PM in response:
"They made 5 strings in the late 1800's? What else did they make? Or was 5 the max?"
Wasn't sure if it was a genuine question or someone just stirring me up thinking I had my facts wrong.
The person I bought the bass from told me "the late 1800's". In the valuation he put c.1903. In a valuation done by someone else they put c.1912. So every time I ask about its age it gets younger and younger.
But still...late 1800's to 1912 - space of about 30 years (give or take a few years); is this when 5 strings were being made?
I'm struggling to find black and white information on the web. I've tried Paul Brun's History of the DB.
and received a PM in response:
"They made 5 strings in the late 1800's? What else did they make? Or was 5 the max?"
Wasn't sure if it was a genuine question or someone just stirring me up thinking I had my facts wrong.
The person I bought the bass from told me "the late 1800's". In the valuation he put c.1903. In a valuation done by someone else they put c.1912. So every time I ask about its age it gets younger and younger.
But still...late 1800's to 1912 - space of about 30 years (give or take a few years); is this when 5 strings were being made?
I'm struggling to find black and white information on the web. I've tried Paul Brun's History of the DB.
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
I have heard that 5s go back to the late 18th century but that would be the German/Prague School. I would think that most old Basses we see with 5 strings were converted from 3 or 4 strings. We do however see many German made 5s from the period of your Bass which was about the time the world was switching over to 4-strings collectively. I believe most of the Austro-Hungary region was mainly 4-string with the occasional 5 while England, France, Spain were mostly 3-string before 1900 and Italy using either.
On the question of more than 5-strings, not with Double Basses. Violones (the name used loosely) and Viol d'Gambas often had 6 or 7 strings but were mainly smaller instruments. The Viols most of which were no bigger than a Cello but Violones like DBs could get quite large and had been seen with few alterations with both 4 and 5 strings. I think the 5-string tunings however were quite different. The Low B I believe is a modern tuning. String development plays a large role here as well.
On the question of more than 5-strings, not with Double Basses. Violones (the name used loosely) and Viol d'Gambas often had 6 or 7 strings but were mainly smaller instruments. The Viols most of which were no bigger than a Cello but Violones like DBs could get quite large and had been seen with few alterations with both 4 and 5 strings. I think the 5-string tunings however were quite different. The Low B I believe is a modern tuning. String development plays a large role here as well.
I still find it funny that people put so much truck in what someone does or doesn't put in a forum profile. I think I'll fill mine out to say I'm Gary Karr, and I own fifteen Prescotts, and couple Fendts, a Stradavarius and of course, an Amati. Oh, and I'm the principle of any number of major symphony orchestras, as well as playing in a local big band on the weekends. I also happen to be a master luthier, a professional bass guitarist, an expert in double bass pickups and a race car driver. 
- Mar 1, 2002
- 4,237
- 52
- 74
- Disclosures
- Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
I still find it funny that people put so much truck in what someone does or doesn't put in a forum profile. I think I'll fill mine out to say I'm Gary Karr, and I own fifteen Prescotts, and couple Fendts, a Stradavarius and of course, an Amati. Oh, and I'm the principle of any number of major symphony orchestras, as well as playing in a local big band on the weekends. I also happen to be a master luthier, a professional bass guitarist, an expert in double bass pickups and a race car driver.
And your point is?
No point, really. Just amused that people still belive what other folk claim to be on the internet. Did I mention I'm also a twelve year old girl?
No point, really. Just amused that people still belive what other folk claim to be on the internet. Did I mention I'm also a twelve year old girl?
I know I should just ignore you but...
This threads been dead since January. Why post a pointless statement?
I know someone called Toman who is an electric bass player and plays grunge. Do you live in Tassy?
From Chuck Traeger's book, (page 30) which is again second hand being stated as "Simandl credits," Carl Otho (perhaps German??) with "inventing" the modern 5-string DB. An original example from "circa 1870" is shown in a photograph. It is worth noting, as Ken has, that 5 string violones (and even six string violones) were common during the Baroque period. It is tough to really "invent" anything new in viol making.
Thanks for that, although I'll probably need some historian to take a look at the bass. It doesn't have those tuning pegs like some old basses do. Possibly removed. Just bought a camera. I'll post some pics when I get my bass back from repairs.
Sounds fun, but what sort of music do you use for these tunings. I've met a few bassists using the E tuned down to a low D for orchestral playing, but that's fairly common. Do you double stop?
Orchestra and chamber orchestra work. I wrote a 9 or 10 page booklet covering the three tunings as a warm-up to which ever I was going to use at the time.
Tom Gale
asodb.com
Orchestra and chamber orchestra work. I wrote a 9 or 10 page booklet covering the three tunings as a warm-up to whichever tuning I was going to use at the time.
Tom Gale
asodb.com
I just gave myself an idea. I dug out the masters for the booklet - actually 8 pages. Its too small to sell and cover the postage, covers, etc, BUT I can add it to the appendix in my Tech. #1 with no increase in $$!!
Tom Gale
asodb.com
Not to hijack a basically dead thread but... Anyone play a 5 with high C and have an extension too? That seems like that would be nice. I'm new to DB and have enough work to do with my Roma 3/4 4 string but I love the way some of those old many string viola da gambas and violones look also, but I'm a sucker for early music. Nice pic of an instrument here: Invalid Link Removed
