Double Bass Extensions or extra strings?

[Silversorcerer]

I really like the old instruments (Renaissance and Baroque) as well, not to be off topic, but have you ever visited this page: Link Removed ?
There are some really interesting variants of forerunners depicted.

As for the C-A-D-G tuning, I used that for some EBG improv work long before 5 string EBG instruments became popular. For me it was sort of not like trying to learn everything in that tuning, just the odd pieces I needed it for here and there. I could see approaching most alternate tunings for any instrument that way. A friend of mine plays lutes and other early instruments and he takes a classical guitar and tunes it several different ways depending on which period of music he might be playing. It never seems to throw him off. But I think he has learned certain pieces in one tuning or another, not one piece in several tunings. And I think that is probably the more common approach with anyone on any stringed instrument that uses more than one tuning. Maybe not, but it would make sense.

 

[robobass]

Anyone play a 5 with high C and have an extension too?

Here is a 5 stringer with a "B" extension. This should get you the range you need!
Robobass

 

[bkbirge]

I really like the old instruments (Renaissance and Baroque) as well, not to be off topic, but have you ever visited this page: Link Removed ?
There are some really interesting variants of forerunners depicted.

Wow, that's nice, I love seeing ancient instruments, even if they are 'best guess' recreations from tapestry or sculpture. Too bad that guy isn't making them anymore. I think I see a Baryton in my (long term) future.

 

[bkbirge]

Here is a 5 stringer with a "B" extension. This should get you the range you need!
Robobass

Nice.

 

[BassAxe]

The contrabassoon can reach a low A, whereas my 5-string only reaches a low B.

*drool* Homer Simpson voice, "Low A. . . Contrabaa-baassooon. . ."

I WANT one, now!!!

 

[Silversorcerer]

I just went thru every Voters Profile and found some information that I would like to share. On the Value of the Poll votes currently I would like to point out that this is a very casual survey at this time.

Findings?

In the 5er/extra strings, 40% of the Voters do not even List a Double Bass in their Profile and only have a Bass Guitar! At least 20% of the Voters don't even have a Profile! Only 40% of the voters have a DB listed in the 5er group of voters. A few of the voters actually play a 5-string Bass so there is some value there weighing in..

On the Ext. side of the votes about 20% of the Voters do not have a DB listed. Maybe 10% have no profile and the remaining 70% have a DB listed.

I think many of the BG players have drifted over here and casted a vote for something other than maybe a DB. Just Maybe!

If I were to do a Poll now (and I have in the past done a few. See post #22 here.) I would specify only those that have played a DB and have tried both a 5er and/or Ext can Vote.

If you don't play the thing, then how would you know which one is better? Can you ask a non-meat eater which cut of steak is better?

I think it's nice to see ones casual opinions but when you ask the Principal of an Orchestra which of the two are better and then you ask a 10th grader who plays a Bass Guitar the same question, would you consider them equal votes in a Poll of which is better?

You might as well ask a Violin Player which Pickup to use in a bass or what Amp to buy. Color is always important. My Father (RIP) once told me that you always bring your wife along when buying a car... So she can pic the 'color'!

Realizing that there is much wisdom in the above quote, I decided to poll some fellows who are pro symphony DB players informally;- I went to see the symphony (ASO) and this time I took a pair of good field glasses so I could check out who was using what. There were 8 bassists and I had a bird's eye view from the right balcony front row right over the bass section. Totally accidental, but typical of my luck. All of the eight basses were four string basses. 4 were equipped with what appeared to be identical extensions and all of these were mechanically keyed extensions;- not even one fingered extension, and no 5 string basses at all. The principal was playing a standard four string bass which was huge. It looked to me like a Prescott bussetto and had the joined f's. All the other basses were smaller and all had violin corners. I think there was only one flat back, but I digress.

Main point: In the ASO, the preference between 5 strings and extensions from all appearances in performance is 100% extensions of the keyed type.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Realizing that there is much wisdom in the above quote, I decided to poll some fellows who are pro symphony DB players informally;- I went to see the symphony (ASO) and this time I took a pair of good field glasses so I could check out who was using what. There were 8 bassists and I had a bird's eye view from the right balcony front row right over the bass section. Totally accidental, but typical of my luck. All of the eight basses were four string basses. 4 were equipped with what appeared to be identical extensions and all of these were mechanically keyed extensions;- not even one fingered extension, and no 5 string basses at all. The principal was playing a standard four string bass which was huge. It looked to me like a Prescott bussetto and had the joined f's. All the other basses were smaller and all had violin corners. I think there was only one flat back, but I digress.

Main point: In the ASO, the preference between 5 strings and extensions from all appearances in performance is 100% extensions of the keyed type.

Ok, 100% extensions of the keyed type. But, were these Extensions installed recently or have they been on the Basses for some time? It would be interesting to Poll people that have had Extensions installed in the last 5 years or so and see what the 'current' trend is now rather than before. Too many a Neck and Scroll have been de-faced with cuts and screws using the old type of Extensions. The Fingered and Chromatic hand-made/hand-fit ones allow for customization that works around the original Scroll and is not screwed into the side of a beautifully grafted Neck.

 

[Silversorcerer]

Good points, Ken. I can't answer those questions as this is the first time at the symphony that I took binoculars and had a good view where I could really see that much detail. The mechanical extensions looked pretty heavy to me. Lots of metal and keys like one sees on a flute or sax with pearl. And all the extensions appeared to be identical, which might suggest that these were all done at the same time by the same luthier. I am not making a judgement as to which type of extension is better, just reporting what I saw in use. That should not be taken as being a complete confirmation of preference, while it might strongly suggest a preference. More on point to the thread topic;- no 5-strings.

Extra info: The program was Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet Overture, Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2, and Rachmaninov's Symphony No. 1. I don't know how much these used the extension notes. By the time they were playing I was just getting lost in the music.

It is noteworthy also that all the bassists used French-frog bows.

I'll try to make a point of getting good balcony seats for future performances as well so I can see if this remains true for other programs. My guess is that it will. I wish I could get a camera in there, but that is out of the question.

And we know where there is a 4/4 busetto Prescott, also. Ralph Jones gets to play it.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Extra info: The program was Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet Overture, Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2, and Rachmaninov's Symphony No. 1. I don't know how much these used the extension notes. By the time they were playing I was just getting lost in the music.

I am doing the Romeo tonight. Not a single note to be played below the 'E', hence no Extension needed for that piece. I am using the Storioni cornerless Bass which doesn't have an Extension at the moment. The Mendelssohn we are doing has only a few notes below E but some of them come up so fast and are short eights or triplet notes and not worth the effort I feel. A few sustained chromatic lows as well but my Bass sounds so FAT on the A string that the guy next to me with his extension doesn't sound as deep as my Bass does an octave up... Lol, but true.

This is probably the last time I take her out before she goes into a huge long restoration. Getting her ready took about 3 gluing sessions over the last 2 weeks. She's tight now but being she's so powerful, she bust's open her own cracks from vibration alone. Guy's, this is a Bass we are talking about. No pun intended!

 

[Silversorcerer]

She's tight now but being she's so powerful, she bust's open her own cracks from vibration alone.

Geeze weeze;- and to think you are getting that without an extension.....

 

[Ludwig]

What is used with orchestras depends very much on the location. If you watch european orchestras, you will see a lot of five string basses and no extentions.
Most pieces can be done on normal 4 string basses, no need for anything else.
If there are pieces really needing the low notes, most of the time one can tune down the E string to D to play the piece. If there are notes below D, I would just play them higher.
A 5 string bass makes playing the single string more difficult and the added pressure often doesn't allow the bass to vibrate as well as it could. The extention is just ugly and difficult to use in fast pieces.
I will stay with a four string EADG and use none of the two possibilities.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

What is used with orchestras depends very much on the location. If you watch european orchestras, you will see a lot of five string basses and no extentions.
Most pieces can be done on normal 4 string basses, no need for anything else.
If there are pieces really needing the low notes, most of the time one can tune down the E string to D to play the piece. If there are notes below D, I would just play them higher.
A 5 string bass makes playing the single string more difficult and the added pressure often doesn't allow the bass to vibrate as well as it could. The extention is just ugly and difficult to use in fast pieces.
I will stay with a four string EADG and use none of the two possibilities.

Would you consider the Storm section in Beeth. 6th, the single 16th notes a 'fast section'? I do, and I worked on it for a few months with a 5er and 3 different Basses with a fingered chromatic Ext. Guess what I took out to the concert? I used my Gilkes with the Ext. and played every note on it. The Brandenburgs are a bit harder with the octave jumps but can be done. Just how clear do you think the low C and Ds are with that fat 5th string at a fast tempo? About as clear sound as a quick fingered or latched extension note I think.

Extensions look ugly you say? I disagree.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed][Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Quite elegant looking if you ask me..

 

[Silversorcerer]

I think it would be interesting to do another poll of just orchestra players and see if most prefer either the 5-string or extension equipped bass over the normal four string playing the notes an octave up.

I think the drop tuning suggested by Ludwig would make for some mighty soggy notes on those down-tuned strings unless these were very high tension when tuned to pitch. I have downtuned on an EBG, but on a DB, the strings need to be tight or the pitch gets sloppy.

Your extensions are beautiful and very artfully built Ken, but still they kind of clutter up the scroll. But cosmetics is not why I like the B string alone. One day I'll have to try an extension and see how that works out. You never know, I might convert.

 

[bbates77]

What is used with orchestras depends very much on the location. If you watch european orchestras, you will see a lot of five string basses and no extentions.

I have checked out a few positions vacant on musical chairs and found that some orchestras will not employ 4 string bassists - with or without extensions. This was a few months ago, so I can't remember which orchestras in particular.

 

[northpaul]

Where's the vote for tuning in 5ths

 

[robobass]

I have checked out a few positions vacant on musical chairs and found that some orchestras will not employ 4 string bassists - with or without extensions. This was a few months ago, so I can't remember which orchestras in particular.

I don't know the details of this MC listing, but most German orchestras own the instruments (usually 5-stringers). At the auditions almost all candidates play 4 stringers. There is certainly a bias against extensions in Europe, but a few are creeping into the sections of major orchestras in Germany, Switzerland, and Holland (probably others too). I just saw the Pittsburgh Symphony in the Philharmonie in Cologne. They had three gated extensions made by Robertson's, and three regular 4-stringers. I found the bass sound to have a certain purity and clarity that I don't hear on that stage from bass sections dominated by 5-stringers. I play both types regularly. I find certain technical advantages to the 5-string, but for sound I absolutely prefer an extension!

Robobass

 

[robobass]

Where's the vote for tuning in 5ths

A student of mine has decided to switch to fifths tuning. He does not aspire to be a pro orchestra player, and plays other instruments as well. We have been going through some common excerpts and trying to come up with good fingerings. A lot of Beethoven is surprisingly playable, and the tuning absolutely improved the sound of his bass. If I did mainly baroque and new music in a chamber setting, I might go for it myself, but I don't see ever getting my Mozart, Haydn, Schubert etc. up to snuff in fifths, let alone learning to sightread proficiently in a reasonable amount of time. Not for me!
Robobass

 

[bbates77]

Where's the vote for tuning in 5ths

The original question:

What do you prefer if you want to go lower than an E?

What is your lowest note when you tune in 5ths?

Being a bass player I love low notes, leave the solos for the celli.
Anyone else have my warped sense of thrills?

 

[northpaul]

The original question:



What is your lowest note when you tune in 5ths?

A low C is the lowest note, C G D A (an octave below a cello).

 

[DFW5String]

In the quest for that lowest of low sound, I've tried the 5-string with the delicious Belcanto Low B, but kept getting the strings mixed up, and the closeness of the strings made things a bit difficult...but what a great sound down to that cracklingly low, organ like B!

I just finished trying tuning in 5ths, using that Belcanto B tuned up to C. Seemed like there were too many shifts and fingerings to learn, and my 2006 Poellmann Busetto did not sound much different from 4ths tuning. Nice tho to have the low C tho, and that A on the top too!

For the recent movie music gig that required a Low D, I just de-tuned the E to D and played that string in 5ths, which worked fine.

Personally, I don't like the looks and complexity of any extension.

Last summer I saw the Berlin Radio Symphony. From where I sat, it appeared that all 8 were playing 5-stringers, all but one playing sitting, on custom stools with foot extensions, all but one using German bows. Could not tell what strings / rosin they were using. With thundering, sonorous sound, they sounded "perfect", and they knew it!