Fake Plastic Trees or DCX Bass?

[FaithNoMan]

It gets really boring when I see Cali76 compressor and Boss OC2 octaver on almost every bass pedalboard. Every bass player's sound is 98% the same. There is no more imagination and diversity. It's all the same as everything else these days (this does not mean that these two pedals are bad in any way).

That's how I feel about the Ampeg sound.

 

[mouthmw]

DCX overdrive can be a bit top-end harsh with poking high mids in flat mode when going direct to audio interface/mixer but it sounds amazing through an amp/cab setup and I find LPF helps a lot when going direct (just like with most dirt, especially fuzz pedals). Combining LPF with a preamp that has a cab sim or a good vst makes it even better. I wanna try a BDDI in conjuction with my HPF/LPF, I have a feeling it could be a great combination to get a great direct dirt tone with DCX.

 

[Boneless]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Assuming you're referring to the FPT, you're talking about a hand built, class A, thoroughly researched preamp pedal that is made to deliver a specific specific function (i.e. to sound and respond like a tube amp - including power tubes) - with pretty much no competition on the market. Unless you go with a modeler, I'm not aware of any amp that will deliver that functionality for that price range.

Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

There is nothing special about "Class A". It's, in a sense, the simplest mode of operation for a semiconductor, and at low power, the one that makes most sense. Nor does this pedal *have* to be hand-built (I mean, I haven't seen the innards, but you could very well design the board with mostly SMD or otherwise machine-assembled components and solder in just the hand-selected components). I'm not necessarily disparaging the design, and by the way, I had the same idea a long time ago. (Simulate an amp in a box, using JFETs since they come closest to approximating tubes, actually have small signal JFETs work as a very low power power amp and couple it to a simulated speaker through a transformer, etc.).

When you actually delve into the "science" of designing electronics, you quickly discover that it doesn't make much economic sense (just the transformer costs at least ten times as much the rest of the circuit, and it brings a lot of drawbacks such as susceptibility to noise), it's only a crude approximation (JFETs do not really behave like tubes, and they come with a lot of disadvantages such as wide parameter spread, low gain, low availability etc.) and it's precisely the sort of thing that makes much more sense to do with modelling.

But more to the point, I'm of the idea that you (we) shouldn't get too hung up with "replicating the sound of tubes", but merely design something or choose something that sounds good to us. Who cares if it sounds "like a tube" (what does that even mean? Which circuit? Which amp? Also, our ears are not that good at discriminating between various types of distortion).

 

[sifrancis]

Gonna jump in here as I have both pedals and a lot of experience with them.

Firstly - the demo of the FPT that gives the impression of "synth-y" sounds and being similar to the prunes and custard is much more about the interaction of a P Bass style instrument with flats and heavy muting, with the harmonic saturation and distortion of the pedal (which is very dynamically responsive). It's the envelope of the note, and the source being quite dark that really accentuates the harmonic distortion. That sort of effect can be achieved with a similar input (dark, muted bass) feeding most tube-y drive pedals or pushed tube amps.
The DCX is also perfectly capable of getting a very similar sound with the same sort of input source.

Character-wise the Fake Plastic Trees is a recreation of the Audio Kitchen The Big Trees in pedal form - a tube preamp and amp with 12ax7 preamp tubes and an EL84 power amp. The pedal fully succeeds in its aims of capturing the sound of that particular tube pedal/amp/preamp, and sounds wonderful. Thanks to some wonderful circuit design including a solid state recreation of EL84 grid clipping, speaker load, and output transformer.

Here is a video of a Yamaha BB into the Fake Plastic Trees played with a pick, that may help illuminate some more of it's range and general tonal character, and how the eq controls impact the drive (I did my best to explore the full range of each of the controls):




The DCX and FPT are similar in that they both seek to replicate tube saturation/overdrive/distortion. They are both dynamic, and responsive to input and play styles (though the FPT has the edge here), but the type of tube saturation/drive/distortion they are shooting for is quite different.

They then differ quite significantly in other areas - most notably the placement of the EQ and how it interacts with the saturation. The FPT has its EQ before the clipping stage, so increasing EQ also increases the saturation around that frequency spectrum. This also helps things to never get too harsher boomy, but also limits the power of the EQ, as it essentially gets compressed and then distorted by the gain stage.
The DCX on the other hand applies EQ post gain, meaning the EQ interacts less with the saturation of the pedal, but allows you get more precise results form EQ moves, and in particular the low end can feel bigger, and the highs harsher (as there is no post EQ saturation to smooth this out).

I personally prefer the FPT to the DCX for the most part. I enjoy the EQ>Saturation relationship and the way the helps me to shape the character of my drive, and play into it. The FPT is also just a little more dynamically responsive, but with that can also feel a bit "saggier", which I like (and assume is it's power amp tube stage emulation coming into play).
The FPT can also get into a more pleasing Fuzz character to my ears, especially when you push the bass hard, as it really overloads the circuit and pushes it into an almost gated-fuzz type zone.

The DCX, for me, is best used as a general tone shaper, either early in my signal chain or at the end (as if it were the mic pre). I also really like using the DCX as a boost into other gain stages, where some of it's harshness is softened, but can also be used to add some bite and aggression to other drives.

The rest is subjective - the harmonic character of their saturation/disortion, eq points and how the mid range "speaks"...etc.

Looking at your board, and from what you describe wanting out of a pedal, I would probably favor the FPT.
Also.... at risk of sounding like a broken record (aware I keep making this recommendation in other posts), I would also encourage you to check out the Blackstone Mosfet. Different-yet-similar to the FPT, and whilst it can't get the blown-out-amp tones of the FPT, it has more range at the lower end of drive, and has some real magic in that area, whilst also giving you a second channel for a higher gain tone.

 

[trigger_happy]

Gonna jump in here as I have both pedals and a lot of experience with them.

Firstly - the demo of the FPT that gives the impression of "synth-y" sounds and being similar to the prunes and custard is much more about the interaction of a P Bass style instrument with flats and heavy muting, with the harmonic saturation and distortion of the pedal (which is very dynamically responsive). It's the envelope of the note, and the source being quite dark that really accentuates the harmonic distortion. That sort of effect can be achieved with a similar input (dark, muted bass) feeding most tube-y drive pedals or pushed tube amps.
The DCX is also perfectly capable of getting a very similar sound with the same sort of input source.

Character-wise the Fake Plastic Trees is a recreation of the Audio Kitchen The Big Trees in pedal form - a tube preamp and amp with 12ax7 preamp tubes and an EL84 power amp. The pedal fully succeeds in its aims of capturing the sound of that particular tube pedal/amp/preamp, and sounds wonderful. Thanks to some wonderful circuit design including a solid state recreation of EL84 grid clipping, speaker load, and output transformer.

Here is a video of a Yamaha BB into the Fake Plastic Trees played with a pick, that may help illuminate some more of it's range and general tonal character, and how the eq controls impact the drive (I did my best to explore the full range of each of the controls):




The DCX and FPT are similar in that they both seek to replicate tube saturation/overdrive/distortion. They are both dynamic, and responsive to input and play styles (though the FPT has the edge here), but the type of tube saturation/drive/distortion they are shooting for is quite different.

They then differ quite significantly in other areas - most notably the placement of the EQ and how it interacts with the saturation. The FPT has its EQ before the clipping stage, so increasing EQ also increases the saturation around that frequency spectrum. This also helps things to never get too harsher boomy, but also limits the power of the EQ, as it essentially gets compressed and then distorted by the gain stage.
The DCX on the other hand applies EQ post gain, meaning the EQ interacts less with the saturation of the pedal, but allows you get more precise results form EQ moves, and in particular the low end can feel bigger, and the highs harsher (as there is no post EQ saturation to smooth this out).

I personally prefer the FPT to the DCX for the most part. I enjoy the EQ>Saturation relationship and the way the helps me to shape the character of my drive, and play into it. The FPT is also just a little more dynamically responsive, but with that can also feel a bit "saggier", which I like (and assume is it's power amp tube stage emulation coming into play).
The FPT can also get into a more pleasing Fuzz character to my ears, especially when you push the bass hard, as it really overloads the circuit and pushes it into an almost gated-fuzz type zone.

The DCX, for me, is best used as a general tone shaper, either early in my signal chain or at the end (as if it were the mic pre). I also really like using the DCX as a boost into other gain stages, where some of it's harshness is softened, but can also be used to add some bite and aggression to other drives.

The rest is subjective - the harmonic character of their saturation/disortion, eq points and how the mid range "speaks"...etc.

Looking at your board, and from what you describe wanting out of a pedal, I would probably favor the FPT.
Also.... at risk of sounding like a broken record (aware I keep making this recommendation in other posts), I would also encourage you to check out the Blackstone Mosfet. Different-yet-similar to the FPT, and whilst it can't get the blown-out-amp tones of the FPT, it has more range at the lower end of drive, and has some real magic in that area, whilst also giving you a second channel for a higher gain tone.

Thanks so much for this! Saw your video on instagram demoing the FPT(I'm chaduplaysbass in IG) and really liked it even when you tweak the eq section! You've nailed the description of how I want to drive my tone. I'm finally getting the FPT next week and I'm really excited!

Thanks so much everyone for all the insightful info you've shared, it was super helpful and helped me finally devide which one should I get.

Cheers!

 

[moon-bass]

But more to the point, I'm of the idea that you (we) shouldn't get too hung up with "replicating the sound of tubes", but merely design something or choose something that sounds good to us. Who cares if it sounds "like a tube" (what does that even mean? Which circuit? Which amp? Also, our ears are not that good at discriminating between various types of distortion).

But see, that's just it - you don't see the appeal to this pedal, and you don't care for the design, but obviously many, many others do. Getting "tube like" distortion and feel is something that has huge appeal, especially for guitarists. Who cares if it "sounds like a tube" - specifically power tubes? Ask pretty much any guitarist and they will tell you, and apparently lots of bassists. And if you think those luddites over in the guitar-world are all embracing modeling, then I have a bridge to sell you. ...

You can't see the appeal? That's fine, but again, different strokes for different folks. I don't understand how you can't see that something like this has a lot of appeal for others.

 

[el murdoque]

So I'm on the hunt for a dirt/saturation pedal. Mostly going to use it as low gain to saturate my clean tone coming from my Neptunium but want something that can also be pushed further. I'm moving on my Stomp as a standalone unit(when I'm lazy and don't want to bring my board) and building an all analog nano setup. I'm using a Precision Bass btw if this helps.

So far, with all the drive pedals I've searched in youtube, I've narrowed down between these 2 that I like. Liking the FPT as well because it can also go a bit synthy when tweaked. If you have any experiences with one or both, do share your thoughts!

Here's what I'm planning to do with my board:
View attachment 7077202

That is a tough one. I own all the pedals pictured, except for the Neptunium - I have a Noble, though.
Here's what makes it tough:
Both pedals can get you a great low gain sound, both pedals have a simple, yet highly effective two band EQ and both pedals can give you something extra when you drive them harder. On paper they are somewhat similar, but in reality they feel fundamentally different.

The FPT can do a lot of what the Doom2 does in higher settings, giving you a rich and synth like tone. The FPT also has this push back - when you send it to drive it will clear up on note decay and does so soemwhat fiercely compared to other drives. If you set it up properly, it can sound like you're using an envelope filter. The low gain sounds are great, too - this pedal does not only sound like a pushed amp, it does feel so, too. That's hard to describe, but easy to experience.

The DCX can become a mean drive when you set it to OD mode. It's roaring with a metallic harshness and can easily be used to generate controlled feedback. It's everything a high gain overdrive should be. In EQ mode, it works really well, too. It is one of the most dynamic dirt pedals I ever experienced when set to EQ. And the Equalizer is nothing short of magic. It works well with other EQs down the line and the bass knob makes the low end richer and fuller without producing mud. The same goes for the top end. You get the magic sprinkles, the air and sparkle, but very little noise and hiss.
It's a great enhancer thing.
The EQ on the FPT is also somewhat magical. When you have some drive going, the treble knob controls how the sizzle works in the mix, while the bass knob controls how much heft the notes deliver.

Confronted with the above scenario, I would most likely go for the combination of Doom2 and DCX because it can get you a lot more tonal options than a single FPT would.

However, FPT, Doom2 and DCX are pedals that I would not consider selling even if I took them off the board. All of these somewhat stick out and all of these are extremely good at what they do.

 

[Boneless]

But see, that's just it - you don't see the appeal to this pedal, and you don't care for the design, but obviously many, many others do. Getting "tube like" distortion and feel is something that has huge appeal, especially for guitarists. Who cares if it "sounds like a tube" - specifically power tubes? Ask pretty much any guitarist and they will tell you, and apparently lots of bassists. And if you think those luddites over in the guitar-world are all embracing modeling, then I have a bridge to sell you. ...

You can't see the appeal? That's fine, but again, different strokes for different folks. I don't understand how you can't see that something like this has a lot of appeal for others.

I would qualify "many, many others" (commercially speaking, if you only sell one at a price that justifies the endeavour, then it's fine, mind you). It does sound very nice, by what I can hear through the samples. Does it sound twice as good as, say, a VTBass (which I don't particularly care for, by the way) or an Xotic Bass BB Preamp (a fancy Tubescreamer)? But anyway, what I'm saying is that "tube-like" feel is not something you can only get with what is still one of many approximations. If you are going for that kind of response, there are probably ways to achieve the same* thing, if you are dead set on doing so, with more "engineeringly rational" means.

*: same means "close enough". Our ears are not that discerning...

 

[moon-bass]

I would qualify "many, many others"

Many, many others was referring to the folks (guitarists and bassists) that are "tube happy" for lack of a better term. If you can't see that by all the people talking about "tube OD," and "tube warmth," and "tube magic," et al then I don't know what to tell you

Does it sound twice as good as, say, a VTBass

That's subjective, isn't it? To me, yeah, the FPT easily sounds well over twice as good as a VT bass (which I don't care for either). I can also think of more expensive preamps that I don't care for either, so again, it's pretty subjective (plus you have to figure in the law of diminishing returns and all that jazz).

If you are going for that kind of response, there are probably ways to achieve the same* thing, if you are dead set on doing so, with more "engineeringly rational" means.

Probably? Maybe. The PFT is pretty unique tho in that it's not just trying to emulate preamp tubes, it's also going for the power section - similar to how the TT800 of the Mesa is designed, but more preamp focused. To nail that sound takes time (money), trial and error - which takes components (money), testing (money), and of course sales, marketing, packaging, etc. (money, money, money). Developing a novel pedal for the commercial market isn't cheap; this isn't a clone of existing circuits

And again, are other pedals close enough? Completely subjective. Of the ones that you listed, the PFT sounds WAY better. Vive la difference!

*: same means "close enough". Our ears are not that discerning...

Yes and no. Again, my ears, and many other people's ears, can tell the difference between a VT bass and a FPT, especially if you A/B them and play through them. I'm actually a huge fan of modelling - I personally think that in a blind listening test one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a 400+ on a Quad Cortex and a real 400+. That being said, I also love knobs and analog devices, the PFT is much smaller than most modellers, so it's not just about how things sound.

And aside from that, man, you try having some of these conversations with musicians that swear that the power cable that they use makes a difference in tone

Here's another way to look at it - take the Boss OC2 (mentioned earlier). Tons of clones on the market. Let's pick on the SA C4. Sounds just like it IMO, but the response, the way that it plays, latency and all that is a little .. different. That doesn't matter to me, I'll adjust, but it annoys the poopie out of some players, and for them, it's worth the extra money to buy either a higher end clone or an actual OC2.

Again, all of this is subjective. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you and you make some good points, but not everyone is the same, not everyone's ears are the same, it's not all about tone, etc. And again, vive la difference!

 

[el murdoque]

I would qualify "many, many others" (commercially speaking, if you only sell one at a price that justifies the endeavour, then it's fine, mind you). It does sound very nice, by what I can hear through the samples. Does it sound twice as good as, say, a VTBass (which I don't particularly care for, by the way) or an Xotic Bass BB Preamp (a fancy Tubescreamer)? But anyway, what I'm saying is that "tube-like" feel is not something you can only get with what is still one of many approximations. If you are going for that kind of response, there are probably ways to achieve the same* thing, if you are dead set on doing so, with more "engineeringly rational" means.

*: same means "close enough". Our ears are not that discerning...

I think you're mixing up sound and feel here.

The FPT does not sound like the Xotic BB Bass Preamp. I'd say the BB sounds like a drive pedal with an organic breakup, and I love it dearly for that.

The FPT does give you not only the sound of an amp driven hard (IIRC, there actually is a tiny little amp in there, driving a tiny little power soak), it also gives you the feeling of playing such a device. You push it over the edge into breakup and it pushes right back, fighting to stay clean. This creates a very different feeling when you play it. When you push it further into that territory where it starts to sound like a synth, the EQ works perfectly for balancing it in a mix.
It is a pedal that sticks out, because it feels different and has an interesting set of simple controls that allow for an astounding amount of versatility.

 

[el murdoque]

Here's another way to look at it - take the Boss OC2 (mentioned earlier). Tons of clones on the market. Let's pick on the SA C4. Sounds just like it IMO, but the response, the way that it plays, latency and all that is a little .. different. That doesn't matter to me, I'll adjust, but it annoys the poopie out of some players, and for them, it's worth the extra money to buy either a higher end clone or an actual OC2.

That's actually a nice example. I use an OC-2 when I want to go for that kind of sound. I have tried a fair amount of octaver pedals, both real ones and simulations inside multi FX pedals. Some of them came close in sound (The Valeton OC-10 or the MXR VBO) , indeed so close it did not make much of a difference, but when it came down to how the reaction of the unit and the action of my fingers is connected, the OC-2 felt best and it was not even close.
It is, up until now, the only monophonic analog octave pedal (or digital simulation of that) that feels natural to play - at least for me. All other versions felt like you need to invest time to learn them, their reactions to the different positions on your fretboard, and still, when that was done, it still felt like wearing gloves while playing, somehow disconnected. Does not matter one bit for some, huge issue for me.

 

[PhatBottomBass1]

If I had +/- $499 I'd own it... I've owned the DCXBass