Fancy stuff.

[willgroove2]

my idea is that one should be able to do both with taste and skill,whenever i hear a "barely there"bassist the song always lacks....something.as far as bass being a good solo instrument i think we have been over this alot on these board's and it's usually a pretty dividing subject

 

[abngourmet]

For me, it all boils down to what fits. I am impressed by the Millers, the Wootens, the Baileys, the Hamms of the world. I'll most likely never be able to do the things they do. They've got chops and technique I can only dream of.

My view is I just don't know how useful it all is. I heard a guy do all this great tapping stuff at GC, but when is one really going to use that other than in a solo? I'm just not sure how it would fit within the construct of a song. There are guys I've heard who make that technique fit (Billy Sheehan comes to mind), but I don't think it's widespread. Same goes for the over the top slap style stuff. Sure, double thumping is impressive (and despite numerous attempts, I've yet to master the technique - I have a lot of respect for those who have, BTW), but again, how useful is it? I just don't know.

I'm most impressed with a player who can groove, but when it's time to solo he can pull all the tricks out of the bag and plays something that makes sense. I think of Pino Palladino on some of David Gilmour's albums, and that's what I think is really great ... a guy who can lay it down and at the same time play some really tasty stuff that fits.

My two cents,

Alan

 

[Mon Rominee]

To quote Scott Thunes:
"Stu Hamm playing the "Moonlight Sonata?" It's an ugly sound-don't do it!"

simply put, if it ain't grooving, driving, or isn't musical in the context of the song, you can jack off your bass all day long, I ain't listenning. Flash within a line is fine. Flash without a line bores me to tears.

Mon

 

[dougjwray]

^Perhaps you've just never heard a really good bass solo? I don't know what you're basing your opinion on, but I've met people who said the same thing. I changed their mind with 2 songs, both Jaco. One was his solo in "Port Of Entry" from Weather Reports' Night Passage album. The other was his solo in "(used to be a)Cha-Cha" from his self-titled album. If you haven't heard those, check 'em out. Both are extremely kickass bass solos, among my favorite.

I'm glad to see someone mention "(Used to Be a) Cha-Cha". That's one of my favorite solos, on ANY instrument.
As far as the general question: everything in moderation. "Context" is the key word. And I never like to hear empty flash, but speedy execution of substantial ideas is cool. Oscar Pettiford, Niels Henning Orsted Pedersen and Richard Davis are other names who come to mind when I think of dextrous bassists whose solos always say something coherent. (Oops, they're all upright players! Sorry!) That's the real challenge. Any clown can learn how to be acrobatic. When I first started playing, I was drawn to the speediest stuff, and was fascinated by things like Stanley Clarke playing a chromatic scale up and down one octave in under one second (on "Light as a Feather", from the Return to Forever album of the same name). Now, I'm more fascinated by things like Sting changing one note of his part each time on different choruses of a tune. Maybe it's the composing side, more than the executing side, that I'm interested in these days... hmmmm...
Okay, now that I've started talking to myself, I'll be going...

 

[Mr_Dave]

To quote Scott Thunes:
"Stu Hamm playing the "Moonlight Sonata?" It's an ugly sound-don't do it!"

yeah

but have you heard marcus millers version off silver rain?

i actually really dig it now i sat down and listened to it properly, he's playing something he really likes in the way that translates best for him and i respect that. i also think he puts a lot of his soul into it.

not sure about stu hamms soul

 

[Alan Vorse]

I think there is such a thing as "tasteful" bass solos. Some people are acing like its either Cliff Williams or Bill Dickens and there is no middle ground.
It's possible for players to make concise, melodic statements with maybe a little technique-y stuff thrown in within the course of a good composition. One of my teachers took a lesson with Ray Brown. As he was taking a solo, Ray stopped him in a random spot and asked "why are you playing that note?" meaning, was there thought behind the note choices, or are you just playning a lot of notes? That's what I want to hear go into a bass solo.
I also think people are equating solos with "showing off" and "wankery."
I will agree, unaccompanied solo bass pieces as a platform for chops are usually a snooze-fest. I wanted to become a better soloist to EXPRESS myself, not inflate my ego and say "look what I can do."
Also have you noticed that, Vic, Jaco, Marcus, Stanley, Willis, DiPiazza, Oteil are among the greats that we hold in high esteem for being soloists, but each of them are incredible GROOVE players too?

 

[Fuzzbass]

Whatever's right for the song. Frequently in jazz, all players are expected to take turns blowing solos. Me, I'm not that crazy about solos, period... that is, any instrument.

 

[Mon Rominee]

Harmolodic, I agree with your post, just wanted to clarify that my comments do not reflect the instances you describe.

I think we all know the difference here, let's not fool ourselves. Musical qualities and wankery are mutually exclusive, and ime, rarely mesh well. I haven't an issue with Jazz artists, or artists that flourish their lines and this and that, I just hate out-n-out "look at me" bass masterbation.

Just a clarification.

 

[cowsgomoo]

this is not directly about virtuosity but since it was mentioned...

i'm definitely on the side of those people who thinks a bass guitar generally sounds best when played in the range between bottom E and the 9th fret E on the G string...

if we're talking in purely timbral terms, I can think of loads of instruments i'd rather hear in the register above that, than bass guitar... for me, a bass guitar played up near the 17th fret is nowhere near as timbrally pleasing as a bassoon, tenor saxophone, Les Paul thru a Marshall or a cello

there are only a handful of bass players I enjoy listening to who play all the way up there for any length of time.. Jaco is one of them, and at the opposite end of the spectrum, Peter Hook from New Order...

 

[Dkerwood]

I say that a solid "groove" should be plenty to impress.

Don't drop the bass back into the background so much that you forget it's there. That's not really groove. There's a reason why "bass" and "base" sound the same. They mean the same thing. Bass is the foundation of the music. It needs to be solid and consistent.

I saw a band the other day whose bassist was amazingly talented. Ten times more talented than me. But the groove wasn't there. All three of the guys in the band were really good, but there was no *click*. It was like listening to three musicians, not listening to one *music*. Back to that bassist.

Like I said, he was very good. But he was slappin' and poppin' all over the place, in such a way that didn't really help the music to get going IMHO. If they were playing funk, that might have worked (although I still think groove is more important, especially in funk). But they were playing this laid back reggae-rock... all those bass notes just didn't fit.

I guess to me, bass fills (a solo is when the band specifically showcases the bassist- a fill is when the bassist tries to show off) are rather like salting food. Without it, the food tastes bland. Too much, and it tastes even worse. But season it right? Ahh, that's the ticket.

Fellow bassists, you would get annoyed if the drummer just filled through every song and never played time. You'd want him to do his job. So do him the courtesy of doing your job. Nuff said.

 

[bobyoung53]

I was just wondering, how do you guys feel about bass "acrobats"? The guys like Vic Wooten who just fly all over the place with fancy million-note-per-second solos all the time (don't get me wrong, Vic can groove beautifully, I'm just making a point). I've seen a rising number of bassists who can go insane with tapping and lightning fast slap runs, but never just calm down and hold a solid groove. What do you prefer?

edit---this should've been in the Technique Forum, can a mod move it for me?

I think everything has it's place but if a bass player wants to tap, whack, or krap all over his bass, he either be damn good and totally original, good enough to be a star and original enough to change something like the people you mentioned or he (or she) is not going to get a lot of work and rightfully so. Many of us can copy these guys but it's the SOS when it's already been done. Learning how to groove is many times the last thing a bass player learns how to do, people who think it's boring and put it down don't know what it means in the first place. I was wowed by Jaco like many but who would I rather listen to most of the time? Duck Dunn.

 

[Dkerwood]

To quote Scott Thunes:
"Stu Hamm playing the "Moonlight Sonata?" It's an ugly sound-don't do it!"

That having been said, I've been spending a lot of time learning a few of the Bach cello suites on electric bass. Octave down, baby, with a HECK of a lot more sustaining power than the cello. Not to mention the ability to do the triple stops better. When you rock down to the low C... Even the cellist would find himself shaking in anticipation.

I've played Beethoven's 5th as an electric bass duet, and that sounded great.

Music for expression is awesome, no matter how technical it is.

Technicality for awesomeness is neither musical or expressive...

(Dang it, I was trying to go for a snappy sum-up like the one previously, but I failed miserably... the lesson is... never try)

 

[Alan Vorse]

Harmolodic, I agree with your post, just wanted to clarify that my comments do not reflect the instances you describe.

I think we all know the difference here, let's not fool ourselves. Musical qualities and wankery are mutually exclusive, and ime, rarely mesh well. I haven't an issue with Jazz artists, or artists that flourish their lines and this and that, I just hate out-n-out "look at me" bass masterbation.

Just a clarification.

I wasn't aiming my comments at you Mon. Sounds like we're on the same page. Loved the Thunes quote. BTW, love Swervedriver and Curve.
I might be a fusion/funk geek, but I actually am really into those sorts of bands (where the bass, usually carries the melody!)

 

[Ed Goode]

I've managed to stay very active over these past many years by being a groove player. I have nothing against bass solo's, I'm moderately okay at soloing but I much prefer the groove function. Guys like John Patitucci impress the heck out of me, because they are, at heart, groove players with major solo chops. I really like how Nathan East drives the band, and Al Caldwell is totally tasty in everything I've heard from him ....

Being a groove player doesn't limit you to a life of low E's and A's, just look at the huge list of cats that have played with James Brown, Funkadelic, etc. These are groove players with giant chops. Larry Graham is amazing, but he can push a band as well as any player I've ever heard without once slapping or popping, because he knows the groove. And of course, his slapping is also legendary

I think I have stayed busy because I can push the band, regardless of the style of music .... there are probably tons of local guys with much more significant chops than I have, but many have limited themselves to one style or another.

 

[Mon Rominee]

I wasn't aiming my comments at you Mon.

That's cool, I just felt the need to clarify myself, so as not to sound like such an ignorant fuddy duddy...

And yes, in the bands we enjoy, the bass definitely supplies the melody, wheras the guitars supply "texture".

A nice way of saying effected simple stuff.

 

[T. B. Player]

Jaco has his place; Victor Wooten has his place. All these people have taken the talent that God has given them and has used it to touch others. If your the best bassist that ever existed and sit in your room all day and play FOR yourself, what good is that? It IS the same as taking the light and putting it under the bushel basket.

The people that amaze and inspire me are the players that can groove and solo at the same time - Chuck Rainey's lines are exemplary. The artist the really inspired me when I was in late teens was the bassist from Ladysmith Black Mombazo.

The person that REALLY influenced me was Percy Jones from Brand X (Phil Collins' band when he wanted to be musical rather than commercial). He'd have conconcted a groove, and then throw some incredible lick in just where it needed to be, and get back into the groove immediately. We won't even mention soloing.....

Jaco's "Teen Town" - Stanley Clarke's "Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy" - the solo groove - if there is such an animal.

Nice thread!

 

[Altitude]

The bass plays the same 12 notes that all of the other instruments play. (Except I manage to find a few more in-between on the fretless ). Whether a bass solo, or any instrumental solo for that matter, is good, in my opinion depends on whether it fits with the song it's in and tells a good story.

If I heard a singer stand up and scream "blah-ga-blah-ga-blah-ga-doo-blah-ga", or some such, as fast and loud as he or she could, I wouldn't like it, even if it were technically hard to do. On the other hand, a catchy melody and clever words are priceless even if simple. Ask Aimee Mann - both keep her career going year after year.

One mistake I see bass players make is trying to fit every technical soloing gimmick they have into the one solo they might get per set, or per night. These guys aren't considering the context of what they are playing - what the song sounds like, the feel, what the soloists that came before did, etc. By making a solo "relevant", it becomes much more pleasing, and it seems to belong in the song.

One way to get yourself halfway there is to key off of the melody of the song for the first few bars of your solo. Listen to Trane - he did that 75% of the time. It gives you, and the audience, a sort of "thesis" for your solo, and gives you something to build on. You may find you are playing fewer, but better-chosen, notes this way and not simply noodling on scales.

All that said, a lock-tight groove is just as interesting to me. Check out Tom Kennedy on Dave Weckl's "Transition" for some great groove work.

And how did Stefan Lassard get that gig, anyway?

 

[The Owl]

For me, I prefer bassists who can groove AND create melodic AND interesting passages. Just to clarify, I cannot stand minimalism for its own sake either (BOOORRRRIIINNNNG), I like my bass to be ACTIVE and involved. But on the ohter hand, I HATE wankery too!


Victor Wooten is a RARE example of someone who can combine extreme technique AND deep musicality. Guys that just wank and play fast notes all the time DO NOT interest me on any level on ANY instrument, period. Anyone conceivably can become a hot-shot speed-crazed technician, but to be a complete musician who communicates is another matter altogether.

 

[ganga]

Two words, Richard Bona.

 

[SundanceChile]

sure you can be loaded full of grooves, or solos, but what it comes down to is BALANCE. sure jaco and marcus can pull off some amazing things with the bass, but they can also lay down some awesome grooves. just listen into Come On, Come Over or Three Dueces, beautiful grooves laid down by master virtuosos.