Fearful vs FRFR

[Lepew]

Yes

 

[Lepew]

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[mmon77]

Do you just want to use modeling because it's a trend or is it actually the best fit for what you are trying to do?

I honestly don't really get the desire to to use modeling for bass.

3 reasons for me:

1. It sounds good
2. I can sound like various different expensive/heavy/huge bass rigs without having to buy them, or lug them around.
3. I already bought it to use with my guitars, so why not use it with bass too since it's capable?

 

[Jack]

I honestly don't really get the desire to to use modeling for bass. Bass is bass. There are about 3-5 basic tones more or less, and then variations on that.

I'm sorry that you think so little of your instrument. I get what you're saying I suppose but it's this kind of stuff that makes us enthusiasts isn't it? Besides, you forget that modellers model the entire rig: quite apart from 'tones' there's chorus pedals, overdrives, tuners, di boxes, all sorts of goodies in there.

So why spend $1500 on a helix and 300 on some cheap consumer PA speaker, when the same amount of money could get you an absolutely SMOKING rig that's actually designed for bass?

Because the helix and the pa speaker are designed for bass.

And for like half that, you could have a 1000w hybrid class D SVT7 with the SVT style tone stack and built in compression, and something like a GK NEO 4x10 which would just be a straight great sounding workhorse cab and be plenty loud and weigh what, like 60 pounds?

But I don't like any of those things. And if I did, they're in my modeller. And it weighs a LOT less than 60 pounds. (I think, we don't really 'do' pounds over here...)

If he shows up with a helix, it's like "well, now I have to do all the work of making you sound good to these people, very likely fighting against whatever poor choices you made in your patch programming".

As opposed to people who make poor choices with amps? I used to turn up to every gig with my amp's contour control set to near-full (because that sounded great in my dad's garage) and then wonder why I sounded mushy on stage. Poor choices are poor choices regardless of the gear.

My point is that bass cabs made out of wood and using purpose built bass drivers are a world apart from a cheap powered PA cab made of plastic.

Agreed. You do have to spend more money usually. Some people can spend it and some can't. Cheap PA speakers can be terrible, you should hear my Alto TX10s have a go at reproducing bass at any appreciable level. Then again, you should hear my drummers' QSC 12.2 do that same thing, there's more dispersion, more clean volume and more clarity than any bass cab I've ever heard

To me, these kinds of rigs are like the "sweatpants" of tone (think Seinfeld). For someone who just really doesn't care any more.

It's precisely because I care that I went to modelling. I wanted a wide variety of great sounds consistently in every venue. This was the only way that I could do it. I'm not saying it's the only way for everyone and I'm not saying that you can't sound great through a traditional rig because of course you can and people have been for years. I'm just saying my basic rock preset on my helix is 5 effects pedals, a crossover, 2 compressors, a cranked guitar amp, a 'combiner' (with no phase issues!), two amps, two cabinets, two mics, two more compressors and a noise gate. That's a lot to carry in real life, the racked helix weighs around 12kg.

All things being equal, you get a screaming Mesa and it will be too loud on most stages, but at least it will sound good.

If it's too loud then it doesn't sound good.

A pair of the headrush cabs would probably be better for listening to prerecorded music than a pair of mesas, but for instruments, an instrument amp is always going to be best, because it will just sound "right".

That's why people model real instrument amps. Or, you know, they don't.

 

[Gord]

My threads always manage to take such left turns!

I have an awesome setup - my SVT into my NV610 is the tone I've been looking for. For years. It kicks you in the chest without being muddy, always sounds perfectly slotted between the drums and the guitar. Amazing.

I'm also really loving my Helix! Within the last month, I've played two shows where both was the perfect tool. One was a house show where that NV610 brought the thunder. The other was a bar gig where there were 3 sets of stairs, and a sound guy that did not want any amps on stage. So, my helix, which is roughly the size of my pedalboard, replaced my entire pedalboard, and saved me from hauling all that stuff down (and then back up) 3 sets of stairs. Pretty awesome, considering most times I play shows, that NV610 and SVT are ONLY used to monitor my stage volume, which is such hilarious overkill.

Thanks everyone in the thread - I think I'm going with the Fearful. Being in Canada, shipping is unbelievably expensive, but I found a way to ship the stuff to the border, and pick it up from there. The QSC looks *incredible*, but I think it might be fun to make my own cab.

 

[Omega Monkey]

Because the helix and the pa speaker are designed for bass.

Nope. "Can be used for" and "are designed for" are 2 different things.

But I don't like any of those things. And if I did, they're in my modeller. And it weighs a LOT less than 60 pounds. (I think, we don't really 'do' pounds over here...)

Those were just examples. But if you can't get a great sound out of those pieces, the problem is with you, not the gear.

As opposed to people who make poor choices with amps? I used to turn up to every gig with my amp's contour control set to near-full (because that sounded great in my dad's garage) and then wonder why I sounded mushy on stage. Poor choices are poor choices regardless of the gear.

If a a guy getting his tone from amp has a bad sound, I can eyeball the amp and say "can you give me less low mids and more treble" (or whatever), and he can do it in 3 seconds. With modeling, everything's buried in some menu diving nightmare, and if the person is using a different preset on every song, it's just not practical to make changes there.

Then again, you should hear my drummers' QSC 12.2 do that same thing, there's more dispersion, more clean volume and more clarity than any bass cab I've ever heard

You must not have heard many bass cabs. The QSC stuff is pretty good, but it could never take the place of a great bass cab.

I wanted a wide variety of great sounds consistently in every venue.

So you take a high end PA and the same skilled engineer who spends the time to dial in the system to the room to every gig? Because otherwise, that's going to be less consistent in most places than a guy with an amp with about the same settings using the cab, covering maybe half the volume needs of the venue.

I'm just saying my basic rock preset on my helix is 5 effects pedals, a crossover, 2 compressors, a cranked guitar amp, a 'combiner' (with no phase issues!), two amps, two cabinets, two mics, two more compressors and a noise gate.

That sounds like complete overkill. 4 compressors? And in the end you're still basically trying to emulate with math what I can do with the real thing. And unless you're part of a big touring show with lots of pre production, you're going to drive the soundguy crazy changing tones significantly for every song, and a lot of those changes probably won't translate to the audience even in the best of circumstances.

If it's too loud then it doesn't sound good.

I basically agree with that, but you missed the point.

That's why people model real instrument amps.

Yep, that's why my model B-17 is just like the real thing, right down to the smell of aircraft fuel and german flak.

 

[mmon77]

Yep, that's why my model B-17 is just like the real thing, right down to the smell of aircraft fuel and german flak.

Just curious...it's clear that you don't like amp modeling, and prefer the real thing. That's perfectly fine, but why the aggression towards people that do? What exactly do you hope to accomplish? How is any of what you're saying at all pertinent to the OP's question about FRFR as it relates to modeling?

 

[Omega Monkey]

I think you may want to look up aggression and refresh yourself on the meaning.

Anyway, I do live sound for a living. I see bands using all amps, I see bands using all modeling. The bands that use amps end up sounding better pretty much every time, as long as they're reasonable with their stage volume. And often the drummer in the modeling bands is still bashing away anyway, defeating the purpose.

Thinking some cheaply made consumer PA box is going to magically make you sound amazing as long as you put a $1500 computer in front of it is just foolish.

In the guitar world, I think it's possible to get some decent results with modeling, using it judiciously and with a lot of pre production work. But everyone seems to think it's all or nothing. But once you're modeling a preamp, an amp, effects, speakers, and mics, you are asking a LOT and the deviation from authentic at each point in the chain is cumulative. And the biggest is usually in the speaker response. The air is important and the air is the biggest factor in keeping your sound "real". If a guitarist was using modeling for the pre and their effects, and sending out to a small stereo tube power amp and regular old guitar 12s, they could probably sound great. It's about knowing how much of the fake thing you can mix in before it's noticeable.

So your best bet with modeling if you want to use as much of it as possible without going to far, is still to run a helix, etc... into a power amp and into a great sounding good quality BASS cab. As a sound guy and bass player, if I wanted to go down the modeling path, that is what I would do. And I would probably just plug the helix into my GBE 750 in a way that allowed me to use the helix pre models, or the GBE pre. Then I would run that into my Goliath III which is not super flat, but sounds like an archetypal bass cab. And no matter what I did with the helix, it would always sound like I was playing through an amp, because I would be.

Anyway, there's no free lunch. Even in 10 or 20 years if modeling gets so good that you can't really tell the difference all the way down the signal chain, you're STILL going to need to spend some dough if you want that on stage at typical volumes. If you can deal with IEMs that may not matter. But then you need to spend EVEN MORE dough on an ass kicking PA that can carry the whole band with ease. A helix or axe fx is not a magic bullet solution by any means, like so many seem to think.

 

[Jack]

Seems we're really going for the multi quite thing here, eh?

Nope. "Can be used for" and "are designed for" are 2 different things.

In what way are they not designed for then? The helix was designed from the ground up to work for bass, the Kemper too. They're the two from the big guns that I've owned, I've never used a Fractal or a Bias so I can't comment. As I understand it, if you move lower down the pecking order you start to get into guitar units and bass units (I have a B3 with just bass stuff in it, I suppose the G3 has just guitar). But the current big 3 are definitely designed for bass. As for the QSC, same question. How does a product that is primarily designed as PA cab (which would include reproducing bass guitar along with everything else), secondarily designed as a stage monitor (again, bass along with others) and that contains a specific 'bass amp' mode that tailors it's response and settings to make it a bass amp NOT designed for bass?

Those were just examples. But if you can't get a great sound out of those pieces, the problem is with you, not the gear.

I agree, and I'm sure they'd sound fine if I got them as a backline. But it's not the dream sound that I want.

If a a guy getting his tone from amp has a bad sound, I can eyeball the amp and say "can you give me less low mids and more treble" (or whatever), and he can do it in 3 seconds. With modeling, everything's buried in some menu diving nightmare, and if the person is using a different preset on every song, it's just not practical to make changes there.

This sounds like you haven't used a modeller in a while. There's knobs on the front that are that easy to turn. I do agree that if every present was too bassy it'd be a pain to change every preset. It seems like that's unlikely though and it seems as though if every preset was too bassy I'd just cut the bass frequencies at the desk. Besides, what if I'm one of those guys who brings 12 basses or a huge analogue pedalboard to a gig? They both cause the same problems (changes in levels, changes in tone) as changing patches on a modeller if not used correctly. Again, if all the patches on a modeller are wonky that's not the gear, that's the user.

You must not have heard many bass cabs. The QSC stuff is pretty good, but it could never take the place of a great bass cab.

Hah! I've heard more than my fair share. We can debate the intricacies of tone and gear preference all day long but if you've ever put a top-flight pa cab next to a top-flight bass cab there's no competition on volume or dispersion. The PA cabs tend to be lighter and smaller too.

So you take a high end PA and the same skilled engineer who spends the time to dial in the system to the room to every gig? Because otherwise, that's going to be less consistent in most places than a guy with an amp with about the same settings using the cab, covering maybe half the volume needs of the venue.

Some gigs we do, it depends. When we don't take our own that means we're either running the PA ourselves or it's a venue with house system and a house engineer. In those cases it's much easier and better sounding to send a nice, clean, pre-processed signal and not have to fight the sound guy with a super-loud stage amp trying to cover half of the room.

That sounds like complete overkill. 4 compressors? And in the end you're still basically trying to emulate with math what I can do with the real thing. And unless you're part of a big touring show with lots of pre production, you're going to drive the soundguy crazy changing tones significantly for every song, and a lot of those changes probably won't translate to the audience even in the best of circumstances.

Of course it is, there's no kill like overkill. In a studio it's totally common to have a squishy 'effects' compressor for a specific feel before an amp and then a compressor after the amp to subtly even it out. I can just use studio magic on the road. It's math, you see. And I could ask for a compressor on the board, but that'd be extra work for everyone. Most sound guys are very happy I suppose, they've never said much apart from good comments but that never really changes no matter what gear I take. My relationships with sound guys doesn't seem to change depending on my rig. Besides, the guitarist and the keyboard player both make plenty of changes to their tone.

Yep, that's why my model B-17 is just like the real thing, right down to the smell of aircraft fuel and german flak.

Like a miniature? If you mean like an Airfix then you can't fly in that so the analogy doesn't hold. You can play a gig with a modeller.

 

[Warwick Qc418]

I use a Fearful 1212/6 with my helix lt and I'd say it is pretty much as good as it gets. Will other speaker work... probably, but not as much.

 

[mmon77]

I use a Fearful 1212/6 with my helix lt and I'd say it is pretty much as good as it gets. Will other speaker work... probably, but not as much.

What amp do you use to power it?

 

[Warwick Qc418]

@mmon77 PeaveyIPR1600

 

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