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Fearful vs FRFR

I've been curious about this as well. I got a Helix to use with guitar, and ended up actually liking the way the Ampeg models sound quite a bit with bass. At home I play it through my studio monitors, and it works, but it does lack that "kick in the pants" low end you get from a normal amp/cab setup.

I'll be interested to see if any other good suggestions come up in this thread.
 
I actually just picked up an alto TS315. They were on sale at GC so it was less than 300 pretax. Main reason I bought it was to use for my new cover band as a pa speaker but since I do have a helix I was curious to try it out with that set up. I'm still working with it since I'm new to Helix and FRFR gear, but I can say that last night, my second attempt at dialing a good tone yielded some very positive results.

For Helix users here is my advice, pay attention to your input impedance setting (more or less cycle and set it to taste) also do the same for the mic emulator on the cab sim. I found that these two settings are fairly critical in getting a good tone from an FRFR speaker. Also I was using amp and cab sims to start but sort of stumbled on the fact that if you use the preamp models direct into a cab sim and no amp, I actually got much better dynamics and tone from the FRFR. I also suppose that makes sense given preamp pedals are how a significant number of bassists get direct tone. Again I'm new at both things, but the results with what I described above have been positive.
 
Interesting device. Might work fine if the low-end driver can handle loud bass (EQ'd more for tone and not depth). I could see it working for bands who use in-ear monitors. If not, might not cut it on a loud stage. Relying on sound guys to give you enough through stage monitors isn't the answer. A really good 115, 210, or 212 is usually needed to handle good size gigs.
 
The lows coming from the FOH sub-woofer will fill in that "missing" lowest octave. In fact the LAST thing you want on stage is to add more of that energy into the air.

The whole point is that you need to hear "flat" when you're dialing in all your presets. You could be listening to some tiny guitar modeling cab, and saying "man, there's no low end, let me crank the bass EQ", and then when you get to the venue, the FOH guy has to high pass your direct signal at 200 because it's a big wall of mud and boom. People tend to compensate for what they're not hearing, so a bass shy cab at home while dialing in sounds is likely to be WAY worse than a bass heavy one.

In a situation like this, you want your rig to be like a little microcosm of the PA. If you're at an appropriate volume on stage, with the same tone as is going to FOH, just scaled down, there shouldn't be excessive low end coming from your rig.
 
The whole point is that you need to hear "flat" when you're dialing in all your presets. You could be listening to some tiny guitar modeling cab, and saying "man, there's no low end, let me crank the bass EQ", and then when you get to the venue, the FOH guy has to high pass your direct signal at 200 because it's a big wall of mud and boom. People tend to compensate for what they're not hearing, so a bass shy cab at home while dialing in sounds is likely to be WAY worse than a bass heavy one.

In a situation like this, you want your rig to be like a little microcosm of the PA. If you're at an appropriate volume on stage, with the same tone as is going to FOH, just scaled down, there shouldn't be excessive low end coming from your rig.
Exactly!
 
Sorry. What is FRFR? Never heard of it.

The NV610 is a beast of beauty. But, gigs have moved on. Signal chain to FOH is a WHOLE different animal. I’m using Demeter.
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What is FRFR? Never heard of it.

FRFR means "Full Range Flat Response". Or, in other words, a completely uncolored amp/cab setup, unlike a normal bass or guitar cab/amp which has a "Baked-in" sound.

The idea is that you use these with a modeling setup such as Helix/Kemper/AxeFX, and allow the modeler to model the whole signal chain (effects/amp/cab/mic, etc.) and the FRFR just needs to reproduce it as is.
 
FRFR means "Full Range Flat Response". Or, in other words, a completely uncolored amp/cab setup, unlike a normal bass or guitar cab/amp which has a "Baked-in" sound.

The idea is that you use these with a modeling setup such as Helix/Kemper/AxeFX, and allow the modeler to model the whole signal chain (effects/amp/cab/mic, etc.) and the FRFR just needs to reproduce it as is.
Right, now I recall. Thanks.

But, isn’t that what the Greenboy cabs are? I would have generally lumped the Fearless/Berg/Audiokinesis/etc cabs in that bucket. Or, is there some other specific FRFR cab out there?
 
If you're looking at the Headrush you might also want to look at the
Alto TS312 it could save you a few $$

Or really any major band powered PA top. The specs will include the frequency response and polar patterns. The manufacturers who include the measurements are the most qualified. The "watts" don't mean squat as they are closed systems. The published measurements will include SPL of the whole box use that instead. (And manufacturers please quit publishing watts for these kind of cabs ;) )

If you ever need more stage volume the kind of cabs work great with powered subwoofers. Same brand have plug and play solutions.

One key point is look at the factory warranty. QSC K12.2 comes with a 6 year factory warranty which is more than any bass gear provides. A good strong factory warranty is key to the quality and serviceability of the cab.

These high end cabs also have a DI out for feeding the front of house. You get your same sound figured out all the way out to the QSC, then it has a single DI out to the house. Let the FOH sound engineer figure out the large room acoustics.
 
Right, now I recall. Thanks.

But, isn’t that what the Greenboy cabs are? I would have generally lumped the Fearless/Berg/Audiokinesis/etc cabs in that bucket. Or, is there some other specific FRFR cab out there?


Greenboy cabs are FRFR.

There are powered cabs on the market now made (or marketed?) specifically with modeling/profiling systems in mind, such as the Headrush unit that was being discussed, as well as several other offerings by different companies. Some are designed to look more like traditional guitar/bass cabinets, and others look like powered PA speakers, which is pretty much what they really are. In the case of the Headrush unit, it actually is a rebranded Alto TS312.
 
Those are bass cabs that are made out of wood (or particle board at least). And each one costs at least as much as the headrush cab.

What is your actual goal? Figure out what your actual goal is and then you can figure out which gear makes the most sense. Do you just want to use modeling because it's a trend or is it actually the best fit for what you are trying to do?

For instance, I bought my uber quads because I wanted great sounding modern cabs that would give me the headroom I wanted (something north of an average single 4x10), but lighter than just having 2 4x10s. So the uber quads are about 2/3 the size of a 4x10 with about the same frequency response, fairly close sensitivity, and similar power handling (for each one). So now I have a total 115 lb rig rated at 1200w, 45-18k, and about 100db at 1w for the pair. And I could probably really get away with just 1 of them for most gigs, and then I save about 30 pounds over my Goliath III.

I honestly don't really get the desire to to use modeling for bass. Bass is bass. There are about 3-5 basic tones more or less, and then variations on that. In a live situation, the minor variations and nuances are likely not going to be noticeable in a band mix. So for a "variety" band, you might want a vintage-y tone (which is mostly the bass and string type), modern slap tone, modern but a bit more restrained, and a nice tubey OD sound. Most of the rest of your variety will come from your effects choices. You can get every single one of those tones with the right single amp (or an amp and a preamp pedal) and about 2 or maybe 3 basses. So why spend $1500 on a helix and 300 on some cheap consumer PA speaker, when the same amount of money could get you an absolutely SMOKING rig that's actually designed for bass? And for like half that, you could have a 1000w hybrid class D SVT7 with the SVT style tone stack and built in compression, and something like a GK NEO 4x10 which would just be a straight great sounding workhorse cab and be plenty loud and weigh what, like 60 pounds? Spend like $1000 on your bass of choice with rounds, then like $500 or so on something like a mexi P or J with flats for vintage stuff. Throw in a handful of carefully selected pedals (maybe including a pre or 2) up to $1k worth, and you're in for about $4k total and what else could you really want? You definitely won't want for onstage volume, tonal options, or overall sound quality. Foregoing the fancy bass and just getting like a really nice mexi or MIJ jazz with rounds, and spending about half as much on effects, but keeping the SVT7 and NEO 4x10, you've spent about the same as JUST the Helix and the headrush cab.

As a soundguy, I always die a little inside when bands are ampless (and/or drumless). If a dude shows up with an old Trace head and a Goliath or Eden 4x10, I know that if he is halfway competent and has reasonably fresh strings, he will sound killer. If he shows up with a helix, it's like "well, now I have to do all the work of making you sound good to these people, very likely fighting against whatever poor choices you made in your patch programming".

Air is what makes sound sound good. So the more air you can get involved in your sound (and I don't just mean pushing it), the better chance you'll have of sounding awesome.
 
Wow, a lot of projection and assumptions there...

I'm aware of the construction of my cabs, thanks.

I just want to know if it works well with bass. That's all I want to know. My guess is it doesn't, but was hoping maybe they made a miracle product.
 
My point is that bass cabs made out of wood and using purpose built bass drivers are a world apart from a cheap powered PA cab made of plastic. Frankly, I wouldn't even use these for guitar (1x12s are cheap and tube power amps arent bad either). Plastic cabs tend to be really ringy and resonant, especially in the low mids which is where a lot of the character of the bass comes from. With guitar you can at least highpass a fair amount of that.

To me, these kinds of rigs are like the "sweatpants" of tone (think Seinfeld). For someone who just really doesn't care any more. All things being equal, you get a screaming Mesa and it will be too loud on most stages, but at least it will sound good. One of these at the same volume is going to be awful. Ironically, it's because of the imperfections/limitations of the actual guitar/bass amps that make them sound good. A pair of the headrush cabs would probably be better for listening to prerecorded music than a pair of mesas, but for instruments, an instrument amp is always going to be best, because it will just sound "right".