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Double Bass Feedback! Help!

G

GoldrushBass

Jun 12, 2010
3
0
#1
Esteemed bassists,

I have the typical problem addressed so many times on this forum: a great orchestral instrument trying to be amplified to ridiculous levels on stage for a rock band. Feedbackville. Here's currently what I'm using, besides a lot of colons:

A loud, moderately dark bass that has a bridge with wings too narrow for a wing pickup, and anything under the foot of the bridge is not an option, either..., an AKG C411 contact mic, powered and amped with a Behringer MIC100 pre, and a BBE Sonic Stomp. I'm currently running this on stage through a borrowed Roland 15-inch keyboard amp, but we're thinking an actual bass amp might be the logical next step... Last effort was a DI out of the amp into the board, with no bass in the stage monitors (the sound guy eventually turned it up in the monitors during the show, but that seemed to make it worse). I had the amp off of the stage on a chair, but have tried it on the floor, too. We have also tried going directly from the pre into the sound board, with no luck either. I have also tried every possible settings for EQ and gain... NO LUCK!!

What I want? Punch!!! This is a rock band!!!

Feedback eliminator? Compressor? Amp? Realist Soundclip? Of course a P-bass would do the trick, but we're trying to get this to work!! Thanks so much for all of your work, guys and gals!!
 
#2
GoldrushBass said:
Esteemed bassists,
I have the typical problem addressed so many times on this forum: a great orchestral instrument trying to be amplified to ridiculous levels on stage for a rock band.
Click to expand...

I don't think you're gonna win this contest without using the dreaded magnetic pickup. At that point you have to ask yourself why? I have to say why not just use a EB.

GoldrushBass said:
What I want? Punch!!! This is a rock band!!!
Click to expand...

There are two players who use DB's in rock bands. Jim Creggan of the Barenaked Ladies and Viktor Krauss with Lyle Lovett. They play in high volume situations and have great tone and presence. Viktor Krauss' setup has three different pickups into a mixer of some sort, very complicated.

GoldrushBass said:
Feedback eliminator? Compressor? Amp? Realist Soundclip? Of course a P-bass would do the trick, but we're trying to get this to work!! Thanks so much for all of your work, guys and gals!!
Click to expand...

I once watched Charlie Hayden play with with Pat Matheny in Song X
They had to put him in a plexiglass enclosure. Frankly, a P Bass sounds a lot easier or perhaps some type of EUB. Good Luck
 
#5
What you're telling is such a challence that I wouldn't prefer to be in... If you also play bass guitar, I would try a Rob Allen or any other bass in that league...
(I have no idea about electric uprights, which mostly sounds cool.)
 
#9
I think your contact mic is a poor choice for your needs. Maybe a Schertler Stat or a Full Circle would work better, and they won't disturb bowing response like a wing slot pickup.

Also, has anyone used one of those "Feedback Suppressors? (like these). This seems like a good idea, but I haven't seen anyone discuss them here.

An EUB would solve your feedback problems, but most of them sound and feel absolutely terrible under the bow. The Merchant Vertical is better than most in this respect, as its bridge sits on flexible spruce bars, better emulating the response of a real bass top.

This is a real challenge. Good luck!
 
#10
GoldrushBass said:
thanks guys, forgot to mention: I primarily play with the bow.
Click to expand...

Well,
There aren't that many pickups that respond to the bow well. The Realist and Full Circle tend to get the best results, but because of the volume levels your talking about, the Realist, IMHO, just isn't going to work. In that particular situation, a mic works best, but once agian without a whole lot of frontline P.A. support, the mic will just pickup everything in it's path, with one possible exception being the new DPA 4099 and I'm not totally sure that it will work either, however you might try borrowing one to check it out. Ideally, you would put the bass, and yourself into a plexiglass booth with the DPA and that would probably solve the problem but, it's expensive and a whole lot to lug around to gigs! JR.'s EUB solution is probably going to be a whole lot less hassle and a great deal less expensive. My guess is that the sound you will get will be pretty close to what you could get with your upright under those stage conditions anyway.

Ric
 
#11
robobass said:
I think your contact mic is a poor choice for your needs. Maybe a Schertler Stat or a Full Circle would work better, and they won't disturb bowing response like a wing slot pickup.
Click to expand...

+1 -I would try this before investing in an EUB, unless you really want one. Also, make sure you mute your afterlengths with something and try and keep stage monitor sounds from going directly into your bass. An outboard unit with a phase switch might help, too.

I can't judge your current equipment choices, but these pieces are not commonly used by bassists, at least not on this forum, and maybe for good reason. FYI, I am able to play at pretty loud levels with aggressive drummers and guitarists with my Stat B without feedback problems. It sounds good with the bow, too, with the right eq.
 
#12
I think the two most effective tools in controlling feedback are a phase switch and a high pass filter. I use a Fishman Platinum Pro which has both of them. The Realist is my pickup of choice. I have played big loud rock shows with a Realist with no problems but the tone isn't great at high volumes. Truth be told I've had better luck with wing pickups like the Underwood or Bassmax for volume (my loud pickup of choice right now) but they don't bow quite as well. The Bassmax is bows better than the Underwood there is just a major volume bump when you get out the stick o pain.
 
#13
I've tried the AKG c411, and in my experience it is very feedback prone without sounding good enough to put up with.

A Fullcircle would definitely work better. The Vektor pickup might work well for bowing too- it's a battery powered contact mike that's designed for double bass and fits in between the bridge and the top of your bass.
 
#14
I would try an Underwood, Planet Wing or even Fishman BP-100. These are less feedback-prone then any contact mike or lets say the Realist. And they can sound O.K. with the bow if
1. you can play with the bow
2. you cut the treble / high mid frequencies almost all the way down. Markbass amps have the VLE filter which is fantastic for taming these terrible frequencies. This filter can turn the BP-100 into a dream pickup (almost).
AND I would put some foam into both f-holes.
 
#15
I play upright in a rock band. The only way you will not have to deal with feed back is to have a large part of your signal come from a magnetic pickup. I blend a magnetic PU with a realist and get good results. Also a good DI is important. Turn the gain down as far as possible and it will help fight the feed back from the realist.

If you always play in places with FOH sound that helps. Keep the bass output on stage monitor that is facing your bass down. Stand as far way from your amp as possible. The big key is having part of your signal come from the magnetic PU though. You can get a lot of articulation from a good one. The only issue is you have to use steel core strings which typically don't bow the best.
 
#16
Jaromir said:
Markbass amps have the VLE filter which is fantastic for taming these terrible frequencies. This filter can turn the BP-100 into a dream pickup (almost).
Click to expand...

Very interesting, that's not something I would have ever thought of. If it can do that it's a magical knob.


Jaromir said:
AND I would put some foam into both f-holes.
Click to expand...

Not something IMHO that I'd try. You never know what will happen when you do this. Basses really need to "vent". At this point I'd move to an EUB or EB. Perhaps you've had good luck with this technique though. To each their own.



Ric
 
#18
Peck_Time said:
A Fullcircle would definitely work better. The Vektor pickup might work well for bowing too- it's a battery powered contact mike that's designed for double bass and fits in between the bridge and the top of your bass.
Click to expand...

I use a combination of both of these pickups for my road gig. They work well together blended with a Headway preamp. Obviously, the Full Circle rejects feedback better. I put as much of the Vektor in as the gig will allow and fill in with the Full circle for punch. If things get rowdy I bring in a Biesele magnetic PU into the mix as well. If you are going to bow the magnetic will not help you much BTW.

And if things get even rowdier I pull out an Azola EUB. I had to do that for the last gig of the run we just did. There was one feedback note around 80 hertz we could not make disappear from the DB.
 
#19
Thanks for the help, guys! I recently tried out an NXT. It was a lot of fun, and it didn't sound nearly as bad as I thought it would under the bow. Can anyone recommend an EUB that might be able to top it? For less $$ even? Thanks again!
 
#20
fingers said:
The Bassmax is bows better than the Underwood there is just a major volume bump when you get out the stick o pain.
Click to expand...
+1 I just got a Bassmax, and that's my experience. It bows nicely, just louder than pizz.

I have a lot of distance between my strings and the wings, so that probably helps. I read somewhere (gollihur?) that if you have a shorter distance you can get some string noise.
 

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