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Double Bass Feedback issues, please help!

Lewis7789

Lewis7789

Sep 17, 2004
396
21
Akron, Ohio USA
Disclosures
Sales; ClearSonic Mfg.
#1
Hi guys. I've read many of the feedback, pickup and amplifer threads here and tried a ton of stuff but I just can't get a good tone out of my DB without it sounding like a big rubber band or humming the venues foundation. It's really frustrating and I was hoping ot get some direct help from you guys.

My setup;
UB Hawkes laminted DB-Revolution Solo2 pickup-Fishman Pro Platinum bass preamp-EA iAMP 350-Epifani UL-310 cab with monster cables all around. I also play my Fender Jazz half the show too.

My bass sounds beautiful acoutsic. And it doesn't sounds too bad amplified at low volumes with the guitar duet. But I play in a loud jazz quartet and a loud folk/indie band with drummers. I'm not talking crazy heavy metal volume, the drummers are actually pretty quiet. But I can't match the volume of the drummers with out my bass feeding back. I'll cut the low frequencies and compress and phase the bass with the Fishman Pre but it just sounds like crap, no low end is not a good thing, as we all know. I'll cut the humming frequencies but all that's left is mids and high mids. I've dampened the tailpiece with a towel and that has helped, but mutes the strings so much that the notes don't resonate. I've gotten to the point where I don't even want to play the DB live anymore because it is SO difficult to amplify. And half the jazz quartet set needs a DB and 3/4 the original band needs DB to go with the two cello players. It's just been a huge headache since I bought the upright bass... :hmm:

I've been thinking about buying a Fishman Full Circle to replace the Revolution Solo2. The Rev Solo is very sensitive and I'm really not too happy with it not being a permanant fixure on the bridge, I travel a lot with my bass. Without the possiblity of the Fishman FC being able to get bumped out of place I think will help some.

I also record acoustic with just mics in the studio so I need some way to get a good acoustic tone in AND out of the studio...

Sorry this post is so long, but any help will be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks...
 
#2
I did my first gig with the RS2 on Friday. It went into a Fishman ProEQ (the older model) and an SWR WM12 amp. The phase switch was helpful in controlling feedback...one way it fed back, the other way it didn't.

Something that helps with focus is to wrap a piece of thick velcro around the afterlenth of the strings, a bit away from the bridge. That cuts out ringing and keeps the strings from resonating there. A piece of dense foam under the tailpiece can also control resonant feedback, but it also cuts out some of the bass's character.

I noticed that if I played too hard, the sound was "plucky," to use a bandmates's term.
 
#3
I recently had a problem with feedback that I've been able to get under control. I snaked a piece of foam rubber through the string afterlengths as suggested by tornadobass. In addition to that I took the advice of another T'ber and put foam rubber in the f-holes. This has really helped cut down on the feedback induced by sympathetic vibration from other instruments -drums for the most part.
 
#5
As much as it can be a logistics nightmare, I find that getting the amp out in front of the bass (or at least alongside you) is key. Obviously, close room boundaries and other acoustic factors can also be an issue, but it's really all about having the amplified sound affect the bass' body as little as possible.

At one point in time when I was gigging with a louder ensemble I actually used a separate amp feeding a stand monitor so I could hear myself accurately. My amp was as close to the edge of the stage and/or on the opposite side of the bandstand in order to get the volumes required before feedback.

I also find that "tone" can be the first thing to go as volumes increase, especially if you reach levels that begin to overwhelm the amp's speakers ability to play cleanly. One can only hope for PA support before you reach that point.

My practice is to develop a set of "reference tone settings" for my gear, and write them down, so I know that I am starting from a good, safe, and familiar place. Room/stage observations contribute to me making slight adjustments to lows and highs, to compensate for boominess or treble-absorbing conditions.

As far as pickups go, they are obviously all a compromise when compared with a microphone, but I can recommend the Full Circle, too.
 
#6
Hello,
I have used a realist for 3 or 4 years without any feedback issues (various amps including a polytone). The pickup has worked well in loud situations like bigbands and folky stuff. I think your right hand technique have A LOT to with your amplified sound. I would suggest working on your right hand pizz technique by using the weight of your arm (not finger) to pull the notes out of the bass and striking the string with the side of your index finger, not the tip. I have found using the whole arm and side of the index finger gives much more volume as well as more tone. If your tone is clear and your volume is strong, you won't need the amp as much. Good luck.

PS: I enjoyed your music on your myspace page.
 
#7
Thanks to everyone for all the helpful feedback (pun intended)!

I snagged a piece of velcro and some foam rubber from work and put that in the bass, I'll have to wait untill Wednesday to hear it at full volume to see if it works.

I always put my amp on top of an "isolation floor" we made at work (www.ClearSonic.com). It's basically a 2'x2'x2" carpeted bag with 1/4" masonite, then 1-1/2" insulation and lastly 1/2" particle board. It works pretty well decoupling the cabinet and looks much nicer than milk crates or rickety speaker stands. Too bad we don't make them anymore...

I'll try setting my amp up and playing with it next to me so the sound waves don't go right through the bass. Thanks, Bob. And thanks for the Fishman preamp I got from you two weeks ago. I'll be ordering a Fishman Full Circle very soon.

I am a newb at DB and have been playing it for about 4 months but I've been playing BG for 12 years. As soon as I got the DB I noticed you really need to play with the side of your finger and arm, just like you said Mr. Kelsey, to get that thump attack sound. Not the finger tips like on bass guitar. I'll work on getting more of my arm into the string and see if that helps.

Thanks again for all the great help. :)
 
#8
make sure the cord going from the element to the jack is not pig tailed (cork screwed). It should be a "s" turn looking head on and a straight line when viewed from the side.

Torquing the cord can preload the element a bit and make it excited.

It should have come with an after length dampener as well that can help better basses at loud volumes...see here:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3423099&postcount=252
 
#9
eroy said:
make sure the cord going from the element to the jack is not pig tailed (cork screwed). It should be a "s" turn looking head on and a straight line when viewed from the side.

Torquing the cord can preload the element a bit and make it excited.

It should have come with an after length dampener as well that can help better basses at loud volumes...see here:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3423099&postcount=252
Click to expand...

Well shucks, THATS what that black tubing is for? I got my RS about a month ago and had no idea.. AND I did have the cable corkscrewed to the jack. I just fixed those problems, perhaps it will help. No offense or anything, but the installation instructions could be a lot clearer and with better pictures. I don't think there was any mention about the corkscrew or tubing in my instructions. But I do absolutley love the Hawkes. :D
 
#10
Well, I bought an amp stand and got my cabinet off the ground and adjusted my RS2 pickup and the beast is still feeding back at shows.

Has anyone tried a magnetic pup like this one? Link Removed I know it won't sound nearly as realistic but I'm tired of having to mess with everything to be able to play shows with my DB. I set up my amp next to me, not directly behind me, adjust all the EQ with my preamp and the phase switch. I spend half my setup time tweaking my DB preamp and pup so it doesn't howl. Then I have to keep tilting the bass during quiet parts while I'm not playing (which looks really silly onstage. Like I'm doing a really slow version of the robot dance). I almost wish I kept my Palatino URB...

I really just want a simple pup that will sound decent and WON'T FEEDDBACK! :bawl:
 
#11
Lewis7789 said:
Has anyone tried a magnetic pup like this one? Link Removed I know it won't sound nearly as realistic but I'm tired of having to mess with everything to be able to play shows with my DB. I set up my amp next to me, not directly behind me, adjust all the EQ with my preamp and the phase switch. I spend half my setup time tweaking my DB preamp and pup so it doesn't howl. Then I have to keep tilting the bass during quiet parts while I'm not playing (which looks really silly onstage. Like I'm doing a really slow version of the robot dance). I almost wish I kept my Palatino URB...

I really just want a simple pup that will sound decent and WON'T FEEDDBACK! :bawl:
Click to expand...

It sounds like the room your playing in is one of those really difficult places to get a good sound in, that we have to play on occasion. I have an old Schaller mag pickup on my backup bass, that I use for outdoor and insanely loud gigs. I've heard a lot of people on TBDB badmouth mag pickups, but IMO this is a damn good sounding pickup. It's not a Full Circle, but your audience won't know the difference, and it's a lot more resistant to feedback (however, you can make it feedback). I don't know what you have for strings on your bass, but you will need steel strings with the Schaller. I've got Spirocore Weichs on mine. Good luck with your quest.
 
#13
Thanks for all the help again guys.
I'll research the Schaller magnetic pick up some more and probably buy that. I have Spirocore Weichs on my bass too, so that won't be a problem. I would think that the magnetic pup would be the most resistant to feedback, moreso than the Full Circle and my installed RS2. I don't mind spending some money on a good pickup though the $500 mics are a little out of my range, plus I've heard they will feedback even more.
I play my DB in two bands, a jazz quartet with a moderate playing volume and an indie/folk band also with moderate volume. With the jazz band I can take my time with setup and tear down and we usually play 3-4 hours. Whereas the inde/folk band, we play a 45min-1hour set with 2 or 3 other bands with quick tear down and setup. My drummers don't play crazy death metal volumes but do get a little lively from time to time.
I bought a QuikLok amp stand and used it last friday at a gig to get the cab (Epifani UL-310) over the body of the bass. Much like yours, Mr. Fitzgerald. It helped a little, but I still had to spend most of the show tunring around tweaking the EQ. Though my cab wasn't as high as yours, mine was about 3-1/2 feet high. I'll try to raise it up even more. I also have the afterlength damper installed.
I just don't want to spend any more money than I need to do get a "decent" tone, with an easy onstage setup...
 
#14
A good resonant acoustic instrument is what we all say we want.

Better resonance = more acoustic volume = more feedback when amped

Mixed purposes. So when we get a better sounding DB, we automatically get worse feedback problems when amped. It makes EUBs sound like a reasonable solution. About the last thing on my GAS list is a Clevinger, but it is definitely on the list. Particularly when the other best solution seems to be a magnetic pup. Once upon a time there was this guy named Leo Fender who had a novel idea..... Perhaps he wasn't the first. Talk about full circles. And I don't mean Fishy ones either. So here we are again. And Feedback is the epitome of the full circle. It's more like the dragon regurgitating its own tail. So what to do? When it gets loud or I look at the rest of the band and no one else but the drummer has hollow shells, I tend to think, "Better bring the EBG for this one." Bummer! But it has to be at least 75% of the EBG's raison d'etre. 100% for the EUB.

Room effects are usually concentrated at a certain frequency. If one can find that frequency and suppress it, most of the feedback will go away. Think 30 band EQ. Post EQ Direct out. On my DB, the feedback is almost always right around 125 Hz. Co-incidentally, and not surprisingly, this is the same note as my DB's cavity (Helmholz) resonance (close to middle C). A parametric midrange EQ can help. Put a full cut on the mids and sweep the peak to find where it works. Better is something like the sweepable -18 notch filter like on the AI amps. If you have time to work with a sound man (and he isn't an unsound man) and if the sound system does have a 30 band graphic EQ, then you can try killing different frequencies to find the culprit. Usually this will only have to be done once. Some rooms will require different approaches.

The isolation pad under your cab is next to useless for eliminating feedback. It will help keep items on the stage from jumping around, but you could do more by putting the same pad under your endpin. Still, it will not be doing much. The soundwaves are traveling through the air. You may as well try playing in a vacuum. That would work. Of course then there would be no sound at all.

While everything that everyone has posted here might help a little (this applies to my suggestions as well), what we all know but just don't want to say is that our instruments do best with other acoustic instruments played unplugged. When it gets electric, go with the current. It's much harder to swim upstream.
 
#15
Lewis7789: My $.02. I don't think the feed-back problem is in the pickup, cab, bass or room.

I've got a similar setup to you (Christopher carved bass, Revolution Solo, iamp500 with Whizzy 12) and my bass has never fed-back on itself.

Ive played some bad rooms and loud gigs too (played an afrobeat gig last week with my iamp cranked as a monitor and loud drums, 2 percussion, 3 horns, 2 guitars and keys crammed on stage).

With respect to compression, my feeling is that it worsens feedback.

As you've played electric bass for 12 years, you've no doubt solved the amplification problems for electric bass.
Double bass is a whole different kettle of fish!

Not standing in front of your amp is a good start, as is elevating it so that you can hear it better. Also don't stand in front of other loud amps/ drums/ etc.

eq: If i'm eqing too much, it's a sign that something else is wrong.

The final piece of the puzzle is developing an awareness of where in each room/ on each stage is the best spot for you to play.
Sometimes I set up in one corner and have my cab 6 feet away pointed at the audience.

If i'm hearing a bad sound, but band members and the audience like it... well sometimes thats the best you can do.

Hope this helps.

-Daniel Y
 
#16
eroy said:
make sure the cord going from the element to the jack is not pig tailed (cork screwed). It should be a "s" turn looking head on and a straight line when viewed from the side.

Torquing the cord can preload the element a bit and make it excited.
Click to expand...

Eroy,

Can you please check if this is the way that the cord should be? (I used to have mine in a pig tail shape and just changed it)

05122006.jpg

05122006(001).jpg

By the way: don't get me wrong but you should really improve the instructions that come with the pickup. Every Rev. Solo user should have access to all the information possible to get the best sound out of their pickups (not only talkbassers).

David Santos

P.S. I attached a grounding wire looped around the RCA jack and tied it into my strings, as you said on another thread, and it really worked on reducing hum. Thanks!
 
#17
Yeah David, that looks text book perfect!

Directions...yeah...I know...as soon as I get some of these pokers out of the fire I will get around to it. Honestly I get into the shop some days and the list of things to do is overwhelming...so things like revamping the directions get put to the wayside.

Someday though...:D ...:help:
 
#19
Thanks again for all the insight guys, and especially Eroy at Upton Bass for the emails and for replacing the pick up. I have gotten several PM's from other RevSolo2 users who have the same problem with feedback. Please contact Upton Bass, Eric will be much more helpful than me. Not that I don't want to help, we're bassists here, we always help eachother. :)

While only playing my BG, I love to set up as close to the rest of the band as possible. Actually, my favorite spot is standing right next to the drummers high-hat. But when playing the DB I understand it's quite the opposite. I need to distance myself from my cabinet, drums and other loud sources. It stinks because I feel like I'm not part of the band when I'm set up waaaay over on the side of the stage, but if that's what I gotta do, so be it. All our live band shots look like I am in medical isolation or something. ;)

Silversorcerer, the audience wants to hear the DB, that's why I drag that behemoth to gigs. With the indie/folk band, it fits nicely with the two cello's, acoustic guitar and drums. And with the jazz quartet, straight jazz always sounds better on DB, especially if the club owner hires the band because I play DB. But I'll look into an electric upright vacuum.
Invalid Link Removed
(I keed, I keed.)

I'll let everyone know when I get a new pickup from Upton if that was the solution. Thanks again for all the input, guys.
 

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