I believe they both have Did Gage pickups and one runs through a Fender 12" bass combo and the other through a preamp into an SWR Workingmans's 12" combo with Boss Reverb stompbox.
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Double Bass Feedback issues, please help!
- Thread starter Lewis7789
- Start date
I believe they both have Did Gage pickups and one runs through a Fender 12" bass combo and the other through a preamp into an SWR Workingmans's 12" combo with Boss Reverb stompbox.
The next (obvious) question: The cellos don't feed back??? I know they are not the broad side of the barn like a DB, but still, you's think they wouldn't have too many advantages. Are the Gage pickups on them like the Realist or do they mount differently?
They also sit down with their amps sitting to the side of them. And thier amps are 12" combo's not putting out nearly as much volume as I need to with my 3x10" cab. Most of the places I play I don't have enough room to stand next to my amp, especially with the jazz quartet in crowded retaurants.
I'm pretty sure they use the David Gage Realists, the ones where they mount in the bridge foot like my RS2. They don't have problems with feedback that I have heard. I'm not trying to fight you, Silversorcerer. We're all friends here.
That brings up another question I've had, how in the world can you guys play in jazz quartet with only a 1x12" cabinet? Are you also running through the PA? I'm jealous, that's all. I wish I only needed a small combo but I guess I play in a louder jazz quartet...
Eric, from Upton Bass, has been gracious enough to send me a replacement pickup, but I play out a lot and need some kind of pickup so I asked him if he could send me a new one and I'll send him the possibly deffective pickup that is currently on my bass. But I'm thinking about just going with a Fishman Full Circle from Bob...
I'm pretty sure they use the David Gage Realists, the ones where they mount in the bridge foot like my RS2. They don't have problems with feedback that I have heard. I'm not trying to fight you, Silversorcerer. We're all friends here.
That brings up another question I've had, how in the world can you guys play in jazz quartet with only a 1x12" cabinet? Are you also running through the PA? I'm jealous, that's all. I wish I only needed a small combo but I guess I play in a louder jazz quartet...
Eric, from Upton Bass, has been gracious enough to send me a replacement pickup, but I play out a lot and need some kind of pickup so I asked him if he could send me a new one and I'll send him the possibly deffective pickup that is currently on my bass. But I'm thinking about just going with a Fishman Full Circle from Bob...
Must be a pretty durn loud quartet bro. I've been wondering in the background if that 3x10 isn't perhaps part of your present conundrum.
I do gigs that I think are loud with a 1x12. I mean I wish the other cats would come down in volume. When we all back off for a quieter part, or when we start a ballad, everything just sounds much better to me with the volume down a notch or two. Past a certain threshold, I can't really hear the subtleties and nuances of my acoustic instrument. It turns into a woodchoppin' contest.
I am not trying to overpower anyone with my bass part, just be supportive, and step out rhythmically or harmonically once in a while. Like my old wind ensemble director used to say, "If you can't hear every other part in the band, you're playing too loud."
Like, why do you have to put out so much more sound than those cellos? Granted, their frequency range isn't the same, for the fundamental pitches anyway.
We rarely have the benefit of a PA. These rooms hold up to say 150-200 people I guess, some of them. Maybe you do larger halls. I dunno.
Or maybe as contrary as it sounds, you could try to EQ some sound of the low low end out of your sound. The real magic is in the mids methinks, for the people listening to you out front.
Three 10s just seems like a lot for DB in a quartet setting.
Don't take this the wrong way man. Seems like you've got a legit thing goin', and you've got a problem that's really plaguing you.
Hi Lewis, glad to see you're out there and dedicated to getting your behemoth's good sound to the audience. If there's one thing I can respect, it's dedication to "your" sound. I don't know if the 3x10 is the problem or not. I don't think it's the Upton P/U either (a fellow player hear in Atlanta was singing the praises of those to me very recently). I'm seriously trying to understand what you're up against because it will likely help me in the long run also. I've been desperately trying to overcome feedback in a quartet I play in. What bolo is saying about everyone being able to hear everyone else is probably the most significant thing anyone has posted in this whole thread. I was up against the same wall as you are a few months ago with feedback and my 4/4 carved 5-string. It didn't really matter if I used my 25 Watt Fender RAD (1x10 combo) or my more recent Ampeg Portabass 800 (500 Watts @ 4 Ohms) with a 2x12. At a certain volume level in certain rooms I got miserable feedback. At levels required for outdoor gigs, it was much worse. Finally I started coming to rehearsals for this quartet (elec. guitar, sax/flute/vocal, trap drums) sans amp. When the rest of the band said they couldn't here me I asked the drummer if I could borrow his sticks. I said to them with the straightest face I could, "You, know, maybe if I hit this thing with some sticks as hard as you are hitting those drum heads, you might be able to hear me."- True story.
Well, you know how these things go, I wasn't trying to start a fight with the drummer either. I figured it was time for the EBG, the PB 800 at considerable power;- and mic'd up drums;- or time for the band to decide that hearing the DB was an important part of the band personality that they didn't want to lose. Just about every feedback reducing trick has been suggested in this thread. The ones I talked about are what did the most for me, but in the long haul the solution was for the rest of the band to turn down, not for me to ruin my sound with a battery of deleterious EQ strategies.
One thing I can recommend to help you understand how sound, bass and treble, and other aspects combine in a room is a site that I think has some of the most excellent info available on the subject in an easy to navigate form: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/auditcon.html
It's not going to solve your problem, but it will help you understand it, and a bunch of other stuff, too. Good luck taming the beastie.
Oh, and I try to stay out of the PA mix. Only if there is a pro on the sound board and a post EQ direct out on my amp will I let someone put me through the board and the monitors. Even then, I don't really think it's the best strategy. Also, there are some pretty punchy 1x12's out there. Watts is more telling than speaker area. On the bass/treble issue, if you study all of the links in that site I recommended, you will find the one where they explain why bass has to be so much louder to be heard. It's the same reason your instrument could swallow a couple of cellos and have room for a few violins and mandos. One thing you might try with this quartet: rehearsing acoustically. Nobody uses an amp. See what that tells you.
Well, you know how these things go, I wasn't trying to start a fight with the drummer either. I figured it was time for the EBG, the PB 800 at considerable power;- and mic'd up drums;- or time for the band to decide that hearing the DB was an important part of the band personality that they didn't want to lose. Just about every feedback reducing trick has been suggested in this thread. The ones I talked about are what did the most for me, but in the long haul the solution was for the rest of the band to turn down, not for me to ruin my sound with a battery of deleterious EQ strategies.
One thing I can recommend to help you understand how sound, bass and treble, and other aspects combine in a room is a site that I think has some of the most excellent info available on the subject in an easy to navigate form: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/acoustic/auditcon.html
It's not going to solve your problem, but it will help you understand it, and a bunch of other stuff, too. Good luck taming the beastie.
Oh, and I try to stay out of the PA mix. Only if there is a pro on the sound board and a post EQ direct out on my amp will I let someone put me through the board and the monitors. Even then, I don't really think it's the best strategy. Also, there are some pretty punchy 1x12's out there. Watts is more telling than speaker area. On the bass/treble issue, if you study all of the links in that site I recommended, you will find the one where they explain why bass has to be so much louder to be heard. It's the same reason your instrument could swallow a couple of cellos and have room for a few violins and mandos. One thing you might try with this quartet: rehearsing acoustically. Nobody uses an amp. See what that tells you.
Oh, no offense taken.
I'm the same way with playing live, especially with the jazz quartet. We had to fire a great drummer because he played too loud. So from then on we always said that if the audience is having to lean into eachother to speak, we are way too loud. And it's always better for an audience to come closer to a stage of music they can't hear than to complain that the music is too loud. I think, like most DBissts, that unplugged is best.
I had a gig last night at a restaurant with my guitarist just playing low volume jazz. Even at the low volumes of this gig, the bass was still feeding back. I ending up ditching the upright and played my Fender Jazz the whole night. Until a fella came up and finally asked "Hey man, when are ya gonna play that upright? I've been waiting all night." I played the last few tunes on it to satisfy the guy and we started talking about the live sound too. He said he ran sound for a few bands and could tell something was wrong.
I've talked to a few other local upright players and see what kind of pickups/mics they use and they are just as baffled as I am, which makes me sound like a moron for not knowing what I'm doing. They all said to try a different pickup. But I really feel like I can't really talk about anything because I'm so new to the DB, that's why I'm so grateful to have all your guys' advice. I took a big chance by asking fro help on a message board but I knew I wouldn't get flamed here on TalkBass.com
Hopefully I'll have a solution soon.
I'm the same way with playing live, especially with the jazz quartet. We had to fire a great drummer because he played too loud. So from then on we always said that if the audience is having to lean into eachother to speak, we are way too loud. And it's always better for an audience to come closer to a stage of music they can't hear than to complain that the music is too loud. I think, like most DBissts, that unplugged is best.
I had a gig last night at a restaurant with my guitarist just playing low volume jazz. Even at the low volumes of this gig, the bass was still feeding back. I ending up ditching the upright and played my Fender Jazz the whole night. Until a fella came up and finally asked "Hey man, when are ya gonna play that upright? I've been waiting all night." I played the last few tunes on it to satisfy the guy and we started talking about the live sound too. He said he ran sound for a few bands and could tell something was wrong.
I've talked to a few other local upright players and see what kind of pickups/mics they use and they are just as baffled as I am, which makes me sound like a moron for not knowing what I'm doing. They all said to try a different pickup. But I really feel like I can't really talk about anything because I'm so new to the DB, that's why I'm so grateful to have all your guys' advice. I took a big chance by asking fro help on a message board but I knew I wouldn't get flamed here on TalkBass.com
Hopefully I'll have a solution soon.
That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time. LOL
Thanks for the acoustics link too. I work at a small shop making acoustic acrylic panels for drums, so maybe I'll have to fabricate a bunch of baffles and bass traps for live shows. I can see it now... I have three trucks of sound dampening to set up to play a live show. Oh the horror... (just kidding, of course)
Neither band is really that loud. Both drummers are very considerate with volumes. And they both play with HotRodz most of the time. I just didn't want you guys to think I'm playing jazz at heavy metal band volumes. I have been rolling off the low frequencies and that has helped a lot, but by the time I EQ my bass to not feedback, it no longer sounds like a bass. The cello's have more low end and resonance than my bass. And that's just plain embarrassing.
What were the walls, floor, and ceiling in the restaurant made of and what was the shape of the room? Was there very much glass (windows)?
My rig is:- Underwood/Fishman pre/GK12" on stand. I have to crank up very loud to get feedback. I defeat feedback by cutting the treble right off - still get a good sound. If I need more headroom I put a GK 12" extension cab on the floor. You don't need my gear but I believe this principle will work with most stuff. Try it. Good luck.
I reread the initial sections of this thread. Man, sounds like you have studied threads here and tried a lot of stuff. So I got to thinkin' 'bout a bunch of other stuff.
Do you feel like you can get a big sound without an amp?
I don't mean by yourself at home. I mean unplugged, in a gig setting, say when everyone is just setting up. With crowd noise, some Muzak blaring overhead, you know.
Are you using a Fender Jazz like right hand technique on your DB, up on the fingertips or pads of your fingers? Or are you plucking with the side of your index (and maybe middle) finger(s) to really get some meat on the string? Take a look at any profile (i.e. side) photo of Ray Brown for example, or check out his Bass Method book. Rufus Reid's DVD really outlines this topic pretty well too.
Has any other DB player tried your bass and your rig at your volume settings?
The reason I ask - I was doing a gig once, and in comes John Brown. He runs the jazz studies program at Duke, also teaches at UNC, plays in the NC Symphony, has traveled abroad, boasts a Grammy nomination w/ Nneena Freelon - a serious, serious heavyweight player. When he sat in for 3 tunes and played my bass, I had to do two things - adjust the height of the endpin (I'm 6'6"), and turn my amp WAY down. He pulled so hard I thought he was gonna break a string. He was obviously getting a much bigger sound out of the bass than I was, and needed less support from my amp.
Do you have a DB teacher? Have they weighed in on this?
Do you feel like you can get a big sound without an amp?
I don't mean by yourself at home. I mean unplugged, in a gig setting, say when everyone is just setting up. With crowd noise, some Muzak blaring overhead, you know.
Are you using a Fender Jazz like right hand technique on your DB, up on the fingertips or pads of your fingers? Or are you plucking with the side of your index (and maybe middle) finger(s) to really get some meat on the string? Take a look at any profile (i.e. side) photo of Ray Brown for example, or check out his Bass Method book. Rufus Reid's DVD really outlines this topic pretty well too.
Has any other DB player tried your bass and your rig at your volume settings?
The reason I ask - I was doing a gig once, and in comes John Brown. He runs the jazz studies program at Duke, also teaches at UNC, plays in the NC Symphony, has traveled abroad, boasts a Grammy nomination w/ Nneena Freelon - a serious, serious heavyweight player. When he sat in for 3 tunes and played my bass, I had to do two things - adjust the height of the endpin (I'm 6'6"), and turn my amp WAY down. He pulled so hard I thought he was gonna break a string. He was obviously getting a much bigger sound out of the bass than I was, and needed less support from my amp.
Do you have a DB teacher? Have they weighed in on this?
Thanks for the reply, Bolo.
I've been an "aggressive" style bassist since I was in my first band with a 30 watt Gorilla bass amp, if ya know what I mean. I had to get the most volume out of my little amp so I dig into the strings pretty well. And I usually get to the gigs before the other guys so I do just play by myself unplugged and can still fill the room in most of the restaurants we play. Until the drums and sax kick in. A day or two after I bought the DB I bought the Rufus Reid DVD so I wouldn't learn any bad habits right off the bat. I don't have a DB teacher, I'm self taught on BG too. But to quote "Stripes", "But we are willing to learn..." I do play with the sides of my fingers, usually my middle finger, on the DB. I've got the fresh callus to prove it!
I learned very early on that you have to play with your fingers more parallel to the strings to get that "thump" of a DB, unlike on my Fender Jazz where it's just fingertip pads. You can kinda see my technic in my profile pic. I do play pretty aggressively on the DB (and the BG too, I guess.) but mostly to get the most sound out of my bass because if I turn the amp up I'll just feedback. I read that the lower the strings are the less volume you'll get out of the bass, so I raised the bridge up. It seemed to help overall volume, but not a whole lot.
I've been curiuos about end pin height. I'm 6'-1" and my bass is a 3/4 scale and the end pin is extended to the 5th notch, 8-3/4" out. It's very comfortable for me to play it at that height so I don't need to lean into the bass, but I've seen guys play with the nut below thier nose? I read it should be around your forehead?
No other DB player has played my bass. I only know two other guys here in Cleveland that play DB and they both live about an hour away and they are "friends of friends". They play with my jazz guitarist in his other projects. Okay, so I don't have any of my own friends.
For technique critism purposes, here's my basic technique:
I've been an "aggressive" style bassist since I was in my first band with a 30 watt Gorilla bass amp, if ya know what I mean. I had to get the most volume out of my little amp so I dig into the strings pretty well. And I usually get to the gigs before the other guys so I do just play by myself unplugged and can still fill the room in most of the restaurants we play. Until the drums and sax kick in. A day or two after I bought the DB I bought the Rufus Reid DVD so I wouldn't learn any bad habits right off the bat. I don't have a DB teacher, I'm self taught on BG too. But to quote "Stripes", "But we are willing to learn..." I do play with the sides of my fingers, usually my middle finger, on the DB. I've got the fresh callus to prove it!
I learned very early on that you have to play with your fingers more parallel to the strings to get that "thump" of a DB, unlike on my Fender Jazz where it's just fingertip pads. You can kinda see my technic in my profile pic. I do play pretty aggressively on the DB (and the BG too, I guess.) but mostly to get the most sound out of my bass because if I turn the amp up I'll just feedback. I read that the lower the strings are the less volume you'll get out of the bass, so I raised the bridge up. It seemed to help overall volume, but not a whole lot. I've been curiuos about end pin height. I'm 6'-1" and my bass is a 3/4 scale and the end pin is extended to the 5th notch, 8-3/4" out. It's very comfortable for me to play it at that height so I don't need to lean into the bass, but I've seen guys play with the nut below thier nose? I read it should be around your forehead?
No other DB player has played my bass. I only know two other guys here in Cleveland that play DB and they both live about an hour away and they are "friends of friends". They play with my jazz guitarist in his other projects. Okay, so I don't have any of my own friends.
For technique critism purposes, here's my basic technique:
The feedback problem might not be your fault. Try this...if you are playing the same place regularly, try and get in and set up before anyone else has set up and switched on.... especially the PA (any live mics) and especially the 'cellos. Set up your sound at the volume level you usually play at, with the same tone settings. I bet you will now be able to set up a better sound for yourself, and at a higher volume level than when everyone else was there. If the 'cellos have had more bass than you previously ,they are probably making you feedback, or any live mics are,or both.
I played with a singer who kept turning up and turning up, and I had to keep turning down and turning down 'till I was acoustic and couldn't even hear myself. In the end I switched to bass guitar which I carry as a backup, and it was feedingback and booming worse than the double bass. I had to get her to turn of the massive amounts of bass that she and the sax player had put on their mics so that I could balance with them. I have found the level that singers and sax players feel they need to be heard above the rest of the band increases with the amount of intoxicants consumed by them.
There is probably nothing you can do about the feedback problem on your own, you are going to have to enlist the support of your fellow band members. They are going to have to be less selfish. Thrust your diplomatic skills to the fore, batten down the hatches and get ready for fireworks,unless you are in the lucky position of working with a band of egoless saints.
I played with a singer who kept turning up and turning up, and I had to keep turning down and turning down 'till I was acoustic and couldn't even hear myself. In the end I switched to bass guitar which I carry as a backup, and it was feedingback and booming worse than the double bass. I had to get her to turn of the massive amounts of bass that she and the sax player had put on their mics so that I could balance with them. I have found the level that singers and sax players feel they need to be heard above the rest of the band increases with the amount of intoxicants consumed by them.
There is probably nothing you can do about the feedback problem on your own, you are going to have to enlist the support of your fellow band members. They are going to have to be less selfish. Thrust your diplomatic skills to the fore, batten down the hatches and get ready for fireworks,unless you are in the lucky position of working with a band of egoless saints.
Turns out it was the bloody pickup! I bought a Fishman Full Circle from Mark from Gollihur Music and installed it last week. I played three different shows with both band at three completely different venues this weekend without any feedback problems. I didn't even need to raise my cabinet off the ground with the $70 amp stand I wish I didn't buy.
I played in a quiet restaurant, a medium-sized jazz club and a rock club and the bass sounded great and I could turn up a lot more than I used to. The pickup sounds nice and full with a good amount of body and string mixture in the overall tone. I didn't even need to EQ the upright, just flat from the Fishman Pro EQ Bass preamp into the EA iAMP350 and out my Epifani UL-310. Everyone in the bands were as happy as I am with the tone and volume from my bass. I'm really pleased and a bit excited I can finally play my upright live without worries now.
I probably got a bad RevSolo2 from Upton Bass. While they did offer to replace it, I could be without a pickup waiting for shipping. I asked if they could send me one and I'll send them the deffective one, but understandably, I didn't recieve a reply email. Oh well. It will make a good little piece of kindling for the fire.
Thanks to everyone for all your help and info, especially Silversorcerer.
I played in a quiet restaurant, a medium-sized jazz club and a rock club and the bass sounded great and I could turn up a lot more than I used to. The pickup sounds nice and full with a good amount of body and string mixture in the overall tone. I didn't even need to EQ the upright, just flat from the Fishman Pro EQ Bass preamp into the EA iAMP350 and out my Epifani UL-310. Everyone in the bands were as happy as I am with the tone and volume from my bass. I'm really pleased and a bit excited I can finally play my upright live without worries now.
I probably got a bad RevSolo2 from Upton Bass. While they did offer to replace it, I could be without a pickup waiting for shipping. I asked if they could send me one and I'll send them the deffective one, but understandably, I didn't recieve a reply email. Oh well. It will make a good little piece of kindling for the fire.
Thanks to everyone for all your help and info, especially Silversorcerer.
Congratulations on fixing your feedback problem. I guess I'm a little bit lat, but was just going to add that I have been using the Schaller magnetic pickup on my old Kay UB for about five years, and have never had any significant feedback problems. I play in a country folk trio, where we all play amplified acoustic instruments, and I use a Hartke 350w amp and Hartke 4x10 bass cab, and get excellent comments as to sound quality by audience members. I also play in an electric country rock kind of band, and just for fun at our last gig I played the URB through the same rig (Hartke stuff referenced above), and with the addition of a Sansamp bass preamp, it really sounded excellent. Great tone, plenty of punch and no feedback. Bottom line, I like the Schaller very much. It sounds as good as you could expect a transducer type pickup to sound, and doesn't feed back.
