Felix changed things like Lawdy Mama into Strange Brew and things like that, made them more pop. I also know it was Dowd that had Ginger change the groove on Sunshine Of Your Love.
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Felix Pappalardi / Sunn help
- Thread starter eb3
- Start date
Felix changed things like Lawdy Mama into Strange Brew and things like that, made them more pop. I also know it was Dowd that had Ginger change the groove on Sunshine Of Your Love.
Exclusively? Hmmm... "Just FYI", here's a correction for your correction.
I know that Felix used a variety of Sunn tube amps, but the Sunn sandwich in this pic is a 2000S head between a pair of 200S cabs.
You can tell by four control knobs and the bass boost switch to the right of them (200S only has three knobs and bass boost and treble boost switchs to the left of the knobs) and by the width of the amp chassis, it's wider than the 200S cabs it's sitting between.
Same story in this Mountain video from 1970; four knob 2000S heads between 200S cabs.
Memory can get hazy, but pictures remember perfectly.
I still would like to know how they didn't fall down!
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Felix, as well as Jack Bruce, used to have their EB3's electronics modified that gave them a distorted sound. Some shop in NYC did the mods. I forgot exactly what they did. Maybe something with adding a diode, I believe.
edit- ehh, just saw someone mentioned the diode earlier on. Guess I gotta read "all" the posts.
edit- ehh, just saw someone mentioned the diode earlier on. Guess I gotta read "all" the posts.
Hey - not to put too fine a point on this, but all the head/cab combinations in the visuals are apparently the same width, which would make them 24" 200s/200s (or 100s/200s) -- the 2000S head is a good six inches wider.Exclusively? Hmmm... "Just FYI", here's a correction for your correction.
I know that Felix used a variety of Sunn tube amps, but the Sunn sandwich in this pic is a 2000S head between a pair of 200S cabs...
Same story in this Mountain video from 1970; four knob 2000S heads between 200S cabs.
Memory can get hazy, but pictures remember perfectly.
I still would like to know how they didn't fall down!
Perhaps the amps are modded with an extra knob on the control plate; I don't think they'd saw off a portion of the 30" 2000S head to make it stack up with a 24" 200S cab. Also, the 100S heads do have 4 knobs and are 24" wide, and others claim that those are what sit right behind Felix, so who really knows? Maybe the best way to get the Felix sound out of those mighty mudbuckers is to use a guitar head as the "control" amp of your multi-Sunn-sandwich-stack!
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If you can find pics of the same size PA head that was the center head that I saw. It did have more knobs. My memory is quite good as is confirmed by the pics. Any group can use any gear at anytime. If you tried to figure out what Anthony Jackson or Richard Bono's personal rigs are by the pics you'd see a lot of provided backline. I have seen Mountain perform three times. Two of those times I was behind and in front of the rig for hours. Two of those times I was next to the rig for the whole show. I'm only stating what I saw. The curvature of the cabs allowed the back corners to touch which prevented them falling. Notice the wheels dangling. But yes it looked precarious!
I think it's pretty obvious that the faceplates are wider than the cabinets in all of those visuals. Look closely at the drum kit side of the amp in the still photo, the power switch is beyond the edge of the cabinet, and freeze the video at :31, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Maybe I'll make a 200S/2000S/200S sandwich any take some pics the next time I'm at my shop to futher illustrate, but here's a pic of a 100S on top of a 2000S. Note the distance between the knobs and the switches on the two relative to the Pappalardi photo, and try to ignore the fact that the 100S has incorrect grill cloth, and that particular 2000S has the later era silk screening on the faceplate.
Also I've attached a Sunn promo photo of Felix with what do appear to be 100S amps in the sandwich, notice how "squared up" the stacks are relative to the other visuals.
The amps in the promo picture almost seem "stubby" by comparison.
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Felix was hand picked to produce "Cream" by Atco.
Felix was a very talented musician.
He played bass on "Badge". (Jack played piano)
He also played guitar, and keyboards. (with other bands before"Mountian")
I seen "Mountian"many times.
And got to know Felix a little.
He was always very kind to me.
He also got cough up in the Drug Culture of that time.
Mostly true, but Felix actually played piano on "Badge"- Jack played bass.
The song on which Felix played bass and Jack played piano was Ginger's great song "What a Bringdown", sung by Jack Bruce.
I saw Mountain play in Macon Ga in 1974, I was on the front row and therefore I guess about 8 feet from Felix. His rig did look like an arrangement of Sunn Concert 2x15 cabs and I distinctly remember counting 8 (I walked away thinking, wow....16 15s!). I was very familiar with Sunn models, and I was expecting to see either Concert or Coliseum heads, but saw neither. Instead, there seemed to be an odd-looking power amp and maybe a Sunn 300. Could he have been using the preamp of the 300 and getting the power from somewhere else? Anyway, Pappalardi's sound was like the Okeefenokee swamp; deep and sticky. Hardly any definition but it certainly laid a carpet for Leslie's guitar. In this late rendition, Steve Knight was no longer in the band; so there were holes to fill and Felixs sound did a pretty good job of filling all available space. As for chops, I think he did a great job in singing, writing arranging, producing, and holding the bottom down. He certainly was admired by his peers, and traveled in a pretty rarefied musical atmosphere.
I am thankful that I heard him (and felt him).
JS
I am thankful that I heard him (and felt him).
JS
I also saw Mountain appro. that time frame in Boston, Suffix Downs Race Track. I think it was 3 bucks to get in. They were touring with Joe Walsh and the James Gang. Excellent show.
I am sure someone out there is going to want to debate this but here we go.
I saw Mountain many times and from late 69 to 72. Felix never used 2000S heads.
The time line for this is all wrong, the amps were not even available until 72 or 73.
I think that the wattage on a 100S would not have been able to push 4 JBL D140 spkrs.
It is possible that the heads are actually 200S modified by Tom Lyle who was their resident equipment guru at the time. There are interviews with Pappalardi in Guitar Player type rags that indicate this. As far as the diode in the base goes, that was strictly used for studio work and never live. I personally have used EB-3 basses live with Model T and/or 200S heads and nailed the tone every time, using the big humbucker only. You have to be in a situation where you can open it up to almost full volume to get the grind going, so watch your ears! The rig I used was 2 Sunn 2/15 BH cabs and 2 Sunn 4/12 cabs with 2 Sunn model T heads or 2 Sound City 120's. On smaller gigs I would just use the 200S and one cab and it worked well. Any good tube amp (Sunn, Sound City, Hiwatt,) will get you the same tone, you just need to not have to much gain in the pre-amp. Forget Marshalls or Mesa.
I saw Mountain many times and from late 69 to 72. Felix never used 2000S heads.
The time line for this is all wrong, the amps were not even available until 72 or 73.
I think that the wattage on a 100S would not have been able to push 4 JBL D140 spkrs.
It is possible that the heads are actually 200S modified by Tom Lyle who was their resident equipment guru at the time. There are interviews with Pappalardi in Guitar Player type rags that indicate this. As far as the diode in the base goes, that was strictly used for studio work and never live. I personally have used EB-3 basses live with Model T and/or 200S heads and nailed the tone every time, using the big humbucker only. You have to be in a situation where you can open it up to almost full volume to get the grind going, so watch your ears! The rig I used was 2 Sunn 2/15 BH cabs and 2 Sunn 4/12 cabs with 2 Sunn model T heads or 2 Sound City 120's. On smaller gigs I would just use the 200S and one cab and it worked well. Any good tube amp (Sunn, Sound City, Hiwatt,) will get you the same tone, you just need to not have to much gain in the pre-amp. Forget Marshalls or Mesa.
+1
A lot is the Humbucking on that EBO through a hifi tube amp. The Marshall sound "Jack Bruce EB3 is those Marshalls not handling the Humbucking at the preamp, amp or those 4x12s. Raunch.
I don't completely agree with this. Modern silicon diodes have a Vf of between 0.6V and 0.7V, so they would clip a little bit on a 1V p-p signal. A lot of basses I've looked at on the scope have output levels in that range or higher.
But more likely what was going on with the Felix diode story was putting a GERMANIUM diode across the output of the pickup -- or somewhere in the chain. Germanium diodes were more common back in the 60's (before silicon diodes became cheap) and had a typical Vf of around 300mV (0.3V). One of those would certainly clip the output of a 'mudbucker'
Pappalardi played bass on the Badge recording?
What's your source for that? It sounds very Jack Bruce-y to me.
Pappalardi copped a similar tone in Mountain (kinda) but Badge sounds very much like Jack's feel, syncopation and style of fills. Nothing personal but I'm skeptical.
What's your source for that? It sounds very Jack Bruce-y to me.
Pappalardi copped a similar tone in Mountain (kinda) but Badge sounds very much like Jack's feel, syncopation and style of fills. Nothing personal but I'm skeptical.
Felix was hand picked to produce "Cream" by Atco.
Felix was a very talented musician.
He played bass on "Badge". (Jack played piano)
He also played guitar, and keyboards. (with other bands before"Mountian")
I seen "Mountian"many times.
And got to know Felix a little.
He was always very kind to me.
He also got cough up in the Drug Culture of that time.
I had read somewhere that Jack had Dan Armstrong install a diode in his EB3 but that it was after Cream. It may have been in an old 70's Guitar Player interview, I'm not sure.
It may well be true because in West Bruce & Laing, Jack had an even more distorted sound than in Cream.
I saw WB&L live when I was in 7th grade. Jack used two Marshall Majors with four 4x15 cabs. He played a bass solo. It was an amazing concert.
Leslie West had an amazing overdriven tone too. Very p90. His cabs gave the most amazing sound between notes. With all the volume and harmonics it sounded like his speakers were working very hard. He used Stramp amps (German) which looked like Marshalls.
It may well be true because in West Bruce & Laing, Jack had an even more distorted sound than in Cream.
I saw WB&L live when I was in 7th grade. Jack used two Marshall Majors with four 4x15 cabs. He played a bass solo. It was an amazing concert.
Leslie West had an amazing overdriven tone too. Very p90. His cabs gave the most amazing sound between notes. With all the volume and harmonics it sounded like his speakers were working very hard. He used Stramp amps (German) which looked like Marshalls.
This is beginning to get tiresome.
Actually, the 2000S was available starting in 1968. (I've attached the page from the 1968 catalog) It had a pair of GZ34 rectifier tubes and a quad of KT88's, was rated at 120 watts and by late '69 they had been replaced with a SS rectifier and 6550's and rated at 150 watts. This continued until 1971, when the amp was renamed the "350B" for the '72 model year.
So, your assertation the "the amps were not even available until 72 or 73" is doubly wrong; not only was the 2000S available prior to '72, it was also NOT available after '71.
Why not?
Of course, anyone can post whatever they like, but here's some interesting reading, from an article in the Nov. 98 issue of Vintage Guitar magazine;
Test Run 2000S
By John Teagle
At the invitation of Al Romano, a New York collector, VG was able to put a full 2000S set through the paces (outdoors of course). Using the late Felix Pappalardi's '63 Thunderbird bass, we filled the Hudson River Valley with a blast of classic licks, amp settings at the requisite 10. The instrument and bass rig have been somewhat reunited, as all the pieces came from the Mountain organization (the head from Felix and the bottoms traced back to Charles Lane Rehearsal Studios, Manhattan, where they reportedly had been sold to pay an outstanding balance).
Numerous features separate this set from a stock model, including the addition of a 120/240V switch for world travelers, a slave output with a mysterious switch allowing a number of heads to be controlled from a single set of controls, and an additional output jack. The handwritten "Sugar" relates to a post-Mountain Pappalardi bassist (Felix had switched to guitar) and the additional pilot light in the middle of the front panel was a Mountain trademark. In an interview for Guitar Player (April '72), Pappalardi refers to the head. "It was souped up some more by our Tom Lyle, but I really don't know what he did. Something to the top, I think. I'm really not into all that electronic thing. As long as I have the bark, the attack that I like, everything's fine."
Like many VG readers, the owner of this set is obviously fanatical about his gear (he also owns a mint Olympic White '65 Strat. "...just like Hendrix's early shows," Ace Frehley's flamey '59 Les Paul Standard, and numerous '60s Marshalls). But when he tried to convince me the amplifier's cabinet says "Mountain" on it, I honestly thought he was bonkers. It seemed no matter which angle we looked at it, I couldn't see it and, of course, he could! He assured me it was there, pulling out lights and illuminating the top surface from all angles. Finally, he took it outside, sprayed water on the top and it magically appeared! Pictures were taken from numerous angles, with the results ranging from blank black to a legible word. Cosmic, dude!
he grille on the head has the close-pattern material used on all the Sunn stuff until late-'69, while the bottoms are dressed in the later Fender-style cloth. It seems obvious the speaker cabinets once were in the Mountain camp, as they are numbered on the bottom in large white numbers for inventory and transport and have a small black label stamped over the numbers with references to Windfall, the band's record label.
It's wise to always be skeptical about celebrity instruments, but this would have been too much to bother with in a forgery. Through the rumor mill (a former owner), it was suggested the cabinets were recovered by Sunn before the identifications were added. After talking to Sunn's A&R man from the era and hearing stories about the factory regularly doing makeovers on equipment from their artist loaner pool, it seems possible. They wouldn't have wanted these promotional items to look ratty, as was inevitable in touring situations (particularly on heavy items).
Which brings us to a "Jimi Hendrix slept here" story that immediately sent up the red flags. Could some of the Mountain gear have been leftovers from Hendrix tours? Numerous guitars and amps have reportedly been passed on to musicians from J.H. himself and if the A&R people thought it was going to a good home, they could easily have looked the other way.
In the November '72 Guitar Player, a columnist writes, "The sound system Felix uses is the Sunn equipment he claims was designed for Jimi Hendrix."
This can be taken a number of ways, and since it is a bass rig, it would have been for Redding, not Hendrix (post-Experience bassist Billy Cox's association with Marshall ended the JHE/Sunn collaboration). Having the grille of the earlier models, but the Bass Boost switch and 6550s of the later version, place it early-to-mid '69, so it could have been one of Redding's last Sunns. By then, Hendrix was known to go over Redding's original bass tracks in the studio, so the time frame is right.
Longtime Pappalardi/Windfall employee Richie DeMartino, who was with Mountain on a daily basis, remembers Hendrix giving Pappalardi "...a whole room full of Sunns," including the head discussed here.
So how does it sound? Cranked, it does a certain style amazingly, with endless sustain but a clarity to individual notes, as on the best guitar amps. Romano ran through the complete catalog of Mountain classics (he studied with West as a teenager, see October '80 Guitar Player for a photo) and it seems obvious Felix's lyrical single-note playing would not have been the same with a modern rig. On the other hand, playing any combination of notes sent the amp into power chord heaven, but not like a Fuzztone; magical in its own way, although certainly not for everybody. The bottoms performed confidently and solidly with no rattle.
Sad in a way, very few players can consistently get away with the volume required to bring out the character of this amp's power tube distortion, making it impractical for everyday use. Since the 2000S amps were extremely expensive and used almost exclusively by professionals, they are today quite rare. As for using it for fun, how often and how long can you get away with playing really loud in your backyard? Playing it indoors would rattle the house down and in a soundproof rehearsal room, you'd go deaf! If you owned your own theater and had a really long guitar cord...another tube-powered dinosaur on its way to extinction.
Thanks to all the folks who helped this month; Noel, Mrs. R, Buck, NiteBob, Richie, Conrad, and anybody I've forgotten. All catalogs and photos courtesy of the author.
I agree the mudbucker was a large part of Pappalardi's tone, and a wide open power tube saturation was the most of the rest, but I don't agree that "Any good tube amp (Sunn, Sound City, Hiwatt,) will get you the same tone".
I think the key was the Dynaco circuit through D140F's.
IMO Sound City and Hiwatt sound similar, probably because of their shared heritage, but the old Sunn stuff has pretty distinctive tonal characteristics.
