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Female Bassist Threads

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I don't understand why people are so quick to want gender to be irrelevant. Or race, orientation, etc. I enjoy working and playing with women. They have a different way of approaching music, work problems, etc. Thay often have a different sense of humor that adds to a conversation. I hope the women that I've known over the years feel the same way about contributions that I make. Your gender or your orientation is one of the biggest defining characteristics of who you are. Why on earth would people want that to be irrelevant in any way? Has anyone heard Tal Wilkenfeld's new album? That's not an album where gender is irrelevant. That's part of why it's a great album. The fact that she's very pretty, combined with her playing which to me is both feminine and challenging, is all part of why she is such a compelling performer. I wouldn't want to take that away from her simply to be able to say that gender is irrelevant. Ladies on TB, if you want to start a thread about your male singer go right ahead. I'll watch your videos, same as I watch all the others. There's a way to be respectful without ignoring who a person is or what they look like.

Perhaps once again I'm misunderstanding the topic at hand. I've just seen many a post about gender not being relevant and it struck me as very odd why we would want that. It seems to be that working on our basic respect for each other would be a far better endeavor.
 
I don't understand why people are so quick to want gender to be irrelevant. Or race, orientation, etc. I enjoy working and playing with women. They have a different way of approaching music, work problems, etc. Thay often have a different sense of humor that adds to a conversation. I hope the women that I've known over the years feel the same way about contributions that I make. Your gender or your orientation is one of the biggest defining characteristics of who you are. Why on earth would people want that to be irrelevant in any way? Has anyone heard Tal Wilkenfeld's new album? That's not an album where gender is irrelevant. That's part of why it's a great album. The fact that she's very pretty, combined with her playing which to me is both feminine and challenging, is all part of why she is such a compelling performer. I wouldn't want to take that away from her simply to be able to say that gender is irrelevant. Ladies on TB, if you want to start a thread about your male singer go right ahead. I'll watch your videos, same as I watch all the others. There's a way to be respectful without ignoring who a person is or what they look like.

Perhaps once again I'm misunderstanding the topic at hand. I've just seen many a post about gender not being relevant and it struck me as very odd why we would want that. It seems to be that working on our basic respect for each other would be a far better endeavor.

Excellent.
 
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Or Suzi Quattro.

Responding to myself, whilst Kaye was a great session player, Quattro was also out front, leading the band, and despite being initially picked by Mickie Most, she apparently very much had her own opinions and still does. And she still plays to some extent, although she's more an occasional radio presenter now, but then other old musicians are too, such as the almost ubiquitous Lauren Laverne or Jarvis Cocker to name two others. (This is UK-biased as I live in the UK).
 
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The unfortunate truth is it almost always comes down to picking who is going to end up bring treated unfairly at the end of the day. She said there’s no point in kidding yourself nobody is going to get hurt should push comes to shove. You have to decide who that someone going to be, and how to live with the fact you too have hurt someone remaking the world to better match your ideals.

Ouch! I mean, seriously ouch!
 
I don't understand why people are so quick to want gender to be irrelevant. Or race, orientation, etc. I enjoy working and playing with women. They have a different way of approaching music, work problems, etc. Thay often have a different sense of humor that adds to a conversation. I hope the women that I've known over the years feel the same way about contributions that I make. Your gender or your orientation is one of the biggest defining characteristics of who you are. Why on earth would people want that to be irrelevant in any way? Has anyone heard Tal Wilkenfeld's new album? That's not an album where gender is irrelevant. That's part of why it's a great album. The fact that she's very pretty, combined with her playing which to me is both feminine and challenging, is all part of why she is such a compelling performer. I wouldn't want to take that away from her simply to be able to say that gender is irrelevant. Ladies on TB, if you want to start a thread about your male singer go right ahead. I'll watch your videos, same as I watch all the others. There's a way to be respectful without ignoring who a person is or what they look like.

Perhaps once again I'm misunderstanding the topic at hand. I've just seen many a post about gender not being relevant and it struck me as very odd why we would want that. It seems to be that working on our basic respect for each other would be a far better endeavor.

This... Because to make the argument that gender is irrelevant is simply making a politically correct statement. Most people don't think that way. For instance, I find it more gratifying to watch a female musician shred on an instrument. To say it doesn't matter is ludicrous. The ludicrous argument is to say one gender has better musical ability than the other, which is 100% inaccurate. So, it's perfectly fine to prefer one gender over the other, but we should never judge someone's talent based on gender.
 
I just want to say that many of us who post on TB are older and we probably notice women musicians more because they were comparatively rare when we were coming up. That said, whenever I go on YouTube, I see more and more great female musicians (it is remarkable how many men follow cute female musicians.) I wonder if there is any real merit distinguishing between male and female musicians anymore? I mean, our gonads do not offer any advantage when it comes to musical ability as far as I know. Maybe the time has come to just call a great player a great player?
No reason to differentiate whatsoever.
 
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Girls can do anything guys can do except piss on a campfire. This conversation should end right about....HERE.
They can do that too. It just might hurt a lot more.

I felt a little the same way that that jokei dude did about cheese's post. But, I know he didnt mean anything derogatory when he created this thread. He just seems to be starting to notice that there are a lot of women musicians. Something you can't hear when simply listening to music.
 
tl;dr version -
i'm an older female bass player who doesn't mind being called a female bass player. it's not ideal, but i can live with it. there are far worse things to be called.

long version -

to those who feel that female musicians are now a normal thing, the last time i went to hollywood guitar center was during december 2018. i was the only woman in a room packed with guitar and bass players - it was really busy, but 100% of the players who weren't me were guys. there could have been women in other rooms, but i didn't go to the other rooms. i just asked my husband if he remembered, and he said "yeah, it was definitely the dude zone".

i'm 61 and female, and i was playing guitar in bands from the time i was about 14. i noticed back then that girls took piano or violin lessons or they sang, but it was boys who wanted to rock. and, probably thanks to joan baez, a few girls played acoustic guitar, but it was mostly guys.

for years, when i went to guitar center 90% or more of the women there were mothers, wives or girlfriends there to support their male guitar or bass player or to stand around looking vague or bored. it wasn't until into the '90s that i started to see a significant number of women who were there for themselves, mostly in acoustic guitars and keyboards, but a small but growing number in guitars and basses.

in 1998 when i had an ad out for bass player available, i got over 80 replies. one of those replies was a band with a woman in it; all the rest were bands composed only of men, and this was a variety of genres. most of the guys were suprised i was a woman, but on the other hand, while a few felt a little reticent about my gender, i auditioned or jammed with about half the people who responded, and of them all, only one forming band had a problem with my being female.

as to why women dress sexy when they appear in bands or youtube videos, it's not just click bait, although if you're a woman who wants the most views, showing a little cleavage doesn't hurt. show business means putting on a show, dressing for success. when hillary clinton was running for office, SO many people who never comment on a male politician's attire talked about her pant suits, and it was mostly either negative or condescending. people said it wasn't feminine. why should someone running for president be feminine at all? but i notice that even powerful women usually wear dresses. women at formal parties are expected to wear dresses, and women under 40 are expected to wear low cut dresses. go to a formal wear stores - that's what you'll see. i used to wear a tux, and people acted like i was a novelty.

since i'm rambling on, men wear a "uniform" for playing certain kinds of music. it makes sense. if you see an upscale jazz band, particularly with a torch singer, the guys wear dressy pants, vests, nice hats and so on; the women wear dresses. and often sexy dresses and high heels, not just to be sexy - it's what the audience expects to see, and culturally, it's what we expect. women in metal from the '80s and '90s always wore scanty, tight clothes while men often wore t-shirts and black jeans.

when i started playing bass in early 1994, i made a conscious decision to dress in "tough" male clothes from my workboots and cargo shorts (yes, cargo shorts) or pants to my non-fitting shirts, always with sleeves. no makeup. no hair styling. and you know what? men actually used different tones of voice when i dressed female vs dressing to play bass. almost all men, not just musicians. gas station attendants, sales reps, you name it. they used different posture, different facial expressions.

to those here who think that gender isn't something that changes people's behavior and perspective nowadays, i know a woman with a busy non-music youtube channel, and she often gets comments about her appearance, that she's sexy (and she NEVER dresses sexy) or not sexy all the time. a male reviewer in the same genre has never received but two comments on his appearance, and he's been youtubing for six years with tons of subscribers.

btw, i think people point out gender for professions that aren't commonly associated with a particular gender. i always hear/read people who say "male nurse", for example, and twenty years ago if there were two people in a hospital room and one was a doctor, you always saw people address the male as doctor, even though that was often not the case.

i have no problem with people referring to me as a female bass player. it's what i am. it doesn't make me angry or sad. there are men who say it demeaningly, but you know what? i refuse to take it that way. and whenever someone mentions a band with a female bass player, hey - at least it lets us know there are women out there who play bass. and to me, that's a good thing. there are definitely worse things to be called.
 
For those of us who have been playing for decades-- the movement to become non-sexual (please don't ding me for lack of a better term) started before most of us were born. Billie Holiday. Marlene Dietrich. Yes, not bass players but still full-fledged members of the music/entertainment profession.

I started playing in the mid-70's professionally. For many years we were gainfully employed as an all-male trio. Always working. Then the 80's hit. The Go Go's. Pat Benatar. Heart. You get the picture. Agent told us we "needed to add a female. Now everyone's got one..." Not my words, our agent's words. We auditioned a lot of singers with little luck. Then on a lark we posted ads looking for a guitarist. We found a beautiful lady with a Les Paul and a Marshall. She was a great player, a great buffer between stupid male egos, and fun as a friend. Sorry she had to leave.

We always found quality players that were female. Guitarists, keyboardists, singers. One of the surprising results was that we got better paying gigs with better accommodations. People liked hearing us play all the hits of the 70's-80's which included a lot of WONDERFUL music from great bands like Heart, Scandal, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joan Jett, etc. On days off we all hung around, dressed in sweats and did laundry together. We explored small towns looking for the best greasy spoons and daytime recreation.

I've stopped touring as a professional musician, but in my mind, this issue started evolving decades ago already. It's the male-centric egos that still have trouble grasping the equality issue. Treat each other with respect. Observe boundaries and opinions. Nothing new here folks, just follow some obvious rules of civility.
 
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Ouch! I mean, seriously ouch!

I mean seriously, she’s right. How can you avoid it. When people argue for change or a new law, it’s seldom for a change or law that will affect what they want to do. It’s invariably to get someone else to do, or not do, something you want them to. We want rules and regulations that are almost always directed at somebody other than ourselves.

And in the process there are winners and losers.

As this attorney put it: “There are no disinterested interests.”
 
I mean seriously, she’s right. How can you avoid it. When people argue for change or a new law, it’s seldom for a change or law that will affect what they want to do. It’s invariably to get someone else to do, or not do, something you want them to. We want rules and regulations that are almost always directed at somebody other than ourselves.

And in the process there are winners and losers.

As this attorney put it: “There are no disinterested interests.”

I'm taking this to PM.
 
I don't understand why people are so quick to want gender to be irrelevant. Or race, orientation, etc

Because nobody enjoys walking on eggshells on the chance someone is going to misinterpret what they’re saying, or attribute things to them that aren’t true, and then run with the ball.

The insidious thing about many of these accusations is they’re presented (and accepted) as “fact” without being proven.

Somebody who accuses you of being biased merely feels the need to state it to feel they’ve established guilt. And many people will gladly accept what’s actually nothing more than an accusation as proof. Dirty politics has been employing that tactic since forever.

How can someone rebut that accusation? You can’t logically prove a negative. You can’t prove you aren’t anything - good, bad or indifferent. You can attempt to prove you aren’t by showing how the accusation isn’t true. But all that does is make the person look like they’re waffling or making excuses. And more recently the circuoar logic trick of “accusing the accused” of being so blind to their own guilt and prejudices that they’re incapable of even seeing their blindness has become a commonplace counter-tactic when someone demands they substantiate their accusation.

Which is funny in a way. Because if you’re deemed incapable of understanding and not worth convincing, why would you want to even have a dialog with your accuser? Far better to just ignore it, circle your wagons, and refuse to budge or concede anything. Because you’re not the one who’s asking for anything to change. You’re already ok with the way things are.

And therein lies the problem with confrontational rhetoric. It reduces everything to a zero sum game. You only have room for a winner and a loser. And it’s usually the person sitting on the status quo who holds the advantage in a head on confrontation. David vs Goliath makes for a good inspirational story. But in most head on confrontations, it’s seldom anything other than a good story once the dust settles. I’ve been involved in my share of social activism over the years. And one thing I’ve learned is if you want to get anywhere you need to lay off the name calling and cute slogans and comebacks. And especially don’t try to paint your opponent into a corner without leaving them an out. Because if it ever comes down to an issue of saving face, it’ll become a battle to the death every time.

But whatever. Many people don’t grasp even rudimentary group psychology or human motivation theory. And it’s hard to motivate groups to change their behaviors when you don’t understand how they work.
 
It's quite simple, in the end. You, me and everybody else, has acquired biases in their life. It happens. The question is: are you prepared to look in the mirror and acknowledge your own biases? Are you prepared to adjust your own behavior in your daily life accordingly? That's all.


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