Female Bassist Threads

[MtManiac]

Gender - and race - do matter.

Every time we say something like “ballsy tone” or give our instruments female names (wth is up with that anyway) or just assume that the person we are replying to in a post is male, we are excluding females. When I was in band class, back in 1982-1988, easily half of the class was girls/young women. But playing in bands - I’ve only rarely played with women, and mostly they were vocalists. I believe things are changing, but we still have a ways to go to make things inclusive. Singling out women as “female bass players” is important, but I also get that it’s a double edged sword. It would be great if we could just recognize bass players regardless of their gender, but recognizing them as women is partly how we ensure they’re included. They had to overcome barriers men did not have to overcome or even see in order to get where they are.

As for race - culture is a huge part of music, both writing and performance. How many times has an African American or Native American music style become taken over and turned into something else? The Blues became rock and roll, soul became disco, hip hop became Justin Timberlake. Even today, when you think of a modern blues player, it tends more to be Stevie Ray Vaughn or Eric Clapton, versus Buddy Guy. I didn’t even know Robbie Robertson was Native until I was in my 40s.

It matters to point these things out; it matters more for the people who identify with those being recognized - and this is why it’s important to everyone, the rest of us need to know that differences matter and differences innovate.

 

[fishdreams]

@Dr. Cheese : yes you are right, it is time to do this. I interpret dr Cheese's original post as fundamentally being about how musicians treat each other.As a 54 year old male I've experienced my own awareness trajectory throughout the years.

When I started out as a 15 year old boy in a teenage jazz band that went through a few incarnations, I 'naturally assumed' that women ('girls') sang, and men ('boys') played. We might have accepted a 'girl' player if she'd were really good or really cute, neither of which were conditions we applied to ourselves that strictly. Also, we definitely would have been troubled with the idea of a 'boy' singer our own age - the only concept we understood re men singing jazz would be an old dude in a tuxedo with a whisky in hand making sexist jokes on stage)

I think this arena of our formative years is very important because we pick up so much behavior patterns here, and we (women and men) are psychologically at our most vulnerable too. To this day, the way young jazz players typically come up, is through local big bands, and to this day this is where teenage girls that show to have some real talent, habitually get treated in a discouraging and mean-spirited manner by older men who can't handle that a teenage girl is better already than they will ever be, and this makes a lot of young female talent hang up their instruments, which explains a lot why there are still fewer female than male musicians.

Another case in point is that the infrastructure surrounding music (agencies, press, academia, forums such as TalkBass, you name it) is deeply male dominated and that isn't necessarily helping either in make women feel safe or treated equally.

So for me nowadays, as things are indeed improving, I
1) check my own bias to make sure I am able to make everyone feel welcome in music regardless of race, age, orientation, gender or self identification;
2) try to speak up in a productive, inviting and non-self righteous way when a situation arises when sexist behavior occurs in my presence (and how to do so, is for me the hardest thing to figure out)
3) I also support this initiative we have voice which promotes safe workplaces in the performing arts by proposing a code of conduct (subscribed to by several leading institutions up to today)

 

[klejst]

Pretty much any female bassist is cool to me, then we go from there on actual talent

 

[jim nolte]

Carol Kaye...done.

 

[rutrho]

You’re on a different page than me, and I have no interest flipping to it. Have a good day.

/shrug ok then

 

[Laurent]

Female bass player? I am thinking of Carol Kaye.
She's an extraordinary musician (understatement) and she's done a lot to educate the bass playing community. Her books, video and classes will have a lasting footprint. She kind of reminds me of my own mother (in a good way), she calls it as she sees it, politically correct or not.
I hope she continues to inspire many generations of female and male bass players.

 

[J_Bass]

Nice thread. The offended appeared earlier and angrier than the offenders. Digital society XXI.

 

[rollie 55]

Talent is talent, regardless of gender.

what is talent i think this word is used to by people that think they are better than the rest music is for everyone

 

[Bassgeer]

My favorite thing about these type of discussions is all the people that come out and assume to be outraged on behalf of the group that the discussion is directed towards.

Other posters have said that we have moved past these types of discussions as a society, but look at any cover video posted by a woman on youtube and there is always at least one slimeball proposing to them in the comments section. Society is getting there, but it is not there yet.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

My favorite thing about these type of discussions is all the people that come out and assume to be outraged on behalf of the group that the discussion is directed towards.

Other posters have said that we have moved past these types of discussions as a society, but look at any cover video posted by a woman on youtube and there is always at least one slimeball proposing to them in the comments section. Society is getting there, but it is not there yet.

I'm 50 and I've seen a big change over the past 30 years. We're far from perfect, but we're getting there. There's hope.

 

[comatosedragon]

Gender - and race - do matter.

Every time we say something like “ballsy tone” or give our instruments female names (wth is up with that anyway) or just assume that the person we are replying to in a post is male, we are excluding females.

Here is my personal anecdote:

I responded to a craiglist article about a week or so ago for a band looking for a bass player. The first line of my response was:

"Dear sir or madam ....."

I got a response saying
"You're obviously a tool based on how you started your letter. No thanks. peace"

What is the polite way to begin a letter when you don't know whom you are addressing these days?
"Hey you" ???

 

[rollie 55]

Pretty much any female bassist is cool to me, then we go from there on actual talent

this talent rubbish again

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Here is my personal anecdote:

I responded to a craiglist article about a week or so ago for a band looking for a bass player. The first line of my response was:

"Dear sir or madam ....."

I got a response saying
"You're obviously a tool based on how you started your letter. No thanks. peace"

What is the polite way to begin a letter when you don't know whom you are addressing these days?
"Hey you" ???

We're living in times where people get offended on one small detail of what you've written instead of looking at context. And that's killing productive conversation.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

After reading the original post, I knew it was going to get kind of tense here.. Unfortunately in this age if you use the terms men/women etc. you get misunderstood as some sort of a sexist person whether it was a compliment or not.

And I see the OP as more of a compliment if anything. How about we ban of all the feminine and masculine terms?

 

[JW56789]

I think if you can cut the gig, I really don't care if you're a girl or a guy. Actually, I love having a girl's voice added if she sings as well, it just adds so much for me. Plus, honestly, women's minds aren't fogged up by testosterone, so that can add some needed sense to the proceedings !

I'm an unabashed 'Mama's Boy', she taught me so much. I'll still open doors for you, pull out your chair, and say 'm'am', but I think women should be paid and treated equally, period.

But . . . . it can really be a Boys Club, and I would shudder to think if the 'Me Too' movement ever steps out in the Muzic Bidniss, as it would make the previous revelations from Movies, etc., look like Vacation Bible School.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

After reading the original post, I knew it was going to get kind of tense here.. Unfortunately in this age if you use the terms men/women etc. you get misunderstood as some sort of a sexist person whether it was a compliment or not.

And I see the OP as more of a compliment if anything. How about we ban of all the feminine and masculine terms?

I find it odd that we use gender-specific third person pronouns and neutral first-person pronouns. Shouldn't it be more "this is what I am" when we say I/me/myself versus "this is what I think you are" when we say she/he herself/himself? That's slowly changing as using they/them becomes more commonplace.

 

[Slinger]

Tal Wilkenfeld, Rhonda Smith, ask Jeff Beck about female bass players.

Just for fun...

 

[dkelley]

I prefer tp point out great lead singers who are also bassists... which may surprise some.

Great female examples include Sheryl Crow, til Tuesday's Aimee Mann, Suzi Quattro

Great make examples include Sting, jack bruce, geddy lee

Update for those who don't understand that it's a form of support, not sexism, to support females on their own.... sheryl, geddy, jack, aimee, suzi, sting....

Could be an interesting topic...

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

I find it odd that we use gender-specific third person pronouns and neutral first-person pronouns. Shouldn't it be more "this is what I am" when we say I/me/myself versus "this is what I think you are" when we say she/he herself/himself? That's slowly changing as using they/them becomes more commonplace.

Not sure I got it.. "This is what I am" and "This is what I think you are" have completely different meanings and can't be used interchangeably.

There are some languages in which the third person pronoun has no gender (for instance they use "it" for "he" or "she". I don't think that makes people speaking the language more or less sexist.

 

[LBS-bass]

Here is my personal anecdote:

I responded to a craiglist article about a week or so ago for a band looking for a bass player. The first line of my response was:

"Dear sir or madam ....."

I got a response saying
"You're obviously a tool based on how you started your letter. No thanks. peace"

What is the polite way to begin a letter when you don't know whom you are addressing these days?
"Hey you" ???

"Dear Sir or Madam" is very formal for email. Responses I receive from online ads usually begin with something like "Hello there!" or 'Hi! I saw your ad..." I wouldn't flag you as a "tool" based on that, but I'm willing to guess that the formality of it was more off-putting to that person than the fact you tried to be gender neutral.