I have two Fender "team built" CS basses, both are fantastic, but neither cost me $8,000 like the OP's examples. Seems to me that's about twice the price they should cost even for a masterbuilt bass.
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Fender Custom Shop Insanity
- Thread starter The Bass Clef
- Start date
Today we have american fenders that aren't built the same way that they were built back in the day, because making them the old fashioned way would be cost prohibitive.
compared to a real 70s jazz neck that begins to feel beefy as you ascend the fingerboard, the modern-C shape necks are thin and skinny. why? to save on cost. with skinniness there come are lots of complaints that the necks are unstable with temperature changes. of course. the new necks are thinner than they used to be.
good luck finding a current production American Standard bass that has a one piece body. that is how they used to make them, and they make them out of multiple pieces of wood today to keep the cost down. if and when you can find a decent piece of wood to make a 1-piece body, it's going to be expensive, and it only makes sense for that blank to go into a high end guitar. no surprises there.
although a lot of people here like to moan and groan about price, what really amazes me is that Fender is able to supply american built instruments as cheaply as they do. fender has made a lot of changes -- some obvious, some not all that obvious -- to keep the prices down. if fender didn't do this then the inflation adjusted cost of current production basses would be much higher than it is.
there's no doubt that Fender's using a tiered marketing strategy in order to gain incremental sales at every price point. it's like a pyramid, with a wide base and a narrow top. lots of people want to buy squires because they're cheap, and only a few people appreciate the work that goes into a $5000 bass enough to pay $5000 for it. the good news is that there are people who are willing to pay that much, so that type of instrument will continue to be made.
i think it would be really bad if our only choices were left to the lowest common denominator of squiers and mexican basses.* i've been shopping for a new bass so that i can give my vintage bass a well-deserved rest. i've looked at recent American Standards and I don't like them. they feel flimsy and cheap to me, not all that different from a mexican and not all that similar to my old 70s fender.
My only choice is to shop at a higher price tier for a new instrument that's got a neck profile and other accoutrements that I like. i guess that because my tastes are out of the mainstream i'll have to spend serous money -- either that or i'll have to reconsider whether it's worth spending that much to spare my old vintage bass. either way the cost ends up being about the same.
* i don't care if i don't spell squier the right way.
compared to a real 70s jazz neck that begins to feel beefy as you ascend the fingerboard, the modern-C shape necks are thin and skinny. why? to save on cost. with skinniness there come are lots of complaints that the necks are unstable with temperature changes. of course. the new necks are thinner than they used to be.
good luck finding a current production American Standard bass that has a one piece body. that is how they used to make them, and they make them out of multiple pieces of wood today to keep the cost down. if and when you can find a decent piece of wood to make a 1-piece body, it's going to be expensive, and it only makes sense for that blank to go into a high end guitar. no surprises there.
although a lot of people here like to moan and groan about price, what really amazes me is that Fender is able to supply american built instruments as cheaply as they do. fender has made a lot of changes -- some obvious, some not all that obvious -- to keep the prices down. if fender didn't do this then the inflation adjusted cost of current production basses would be much higher than it is.
there's no doubt that Fender's using a tiered marketing strategy in order to gain incremental sales at every price point. it's like a pyramid, with a wide base and a narrow top. lots of people want to buy squires because they're cheap, and only a few people appreciate the work that goes into a $5000 bass enough to pay $5000 for it. the good news is that there are people who are willing to pay that much, so that type of instrument will continue to be made.
i think it would be really bad if our only choices were left to the lowest common denominator of squiers and mexican basses.* i've been shopping for a new bass so that i can give my vintage bass a well-deserved rest. i've looked at recent American Standards and I don't like them. they feel flimsy and cheap to me, not all that different from a mexican and not all that similar to my old 70s fender.
My only choice is to shop at a higher price tier for a new instrument that's got a neck profile and other accoutrements that I like. i guess that because my tastes are out of the mainstream i'll have to spend serous money -- either that or i'll have to reconsider whether it's worth spending that much to spare my old vintage bass. either way the cost ends up being about the same.
* i don't care if i don't spell squier the right way.
Wow, and I thought that the pricing on the American Vintage Reissues had gotten out of hand, but the Custom Shop is crazy expensive at this point. The AV's are more in my price bracket, but even then, I opted to go to Bluesman Vintage instead - not only to save a few bucks, but to get exactly what I wanted. Sure, no Fender decal on the headstock, but I'm very happy with my decision. I had a similar thing with Gibson and their Thunderbirds. I decided to go with Cataldo instead and I also ended up very happy. Here's to supporting the little guys.
I have had several CS basses and a Pino signature also. They all were very nice basses. I no longer have them but the resale value held to nearly what I paid for them, but I initially bought them used. The new ones are priced to high for me but that is just me. I think it's great that they offer some models that aren't mass produced.
The Fenders I did hold on to are a 73 P, a 72 P and a beat to heck 73 P which Fender will charge a hefty fee for the relic job.. If the CS basses felt as good as these do to me I would never have sold them.
There's my .02 cents
The Fenders I did hold on to are a 73 P, a 72 P and a beat to heck 73 P which Fender will charge a hefty fee for the relic job.. If the CS basses felt as good as these do to me I would never have sold them.
There's my .02 cents
Lots of great responses! My main point in the OP was just that the replicas, no matter who built them or how they were built, should never be considered as (or more) valuable than the real originals they are replicating, IMO. Simply because they are replicas. And I'm comparing the CS basses to vintage basses that are in great functional condition - not some vintage bass that went through a hurricane 25 years ago - I'm talking about solid, 100% original vintage basses that sell for less than the replicas of the same year, with the same appointments.
I know a lot of you guys have thought the same thing, see my point and agree. But I'm sort of surprised at how many people don't see any problem with this picture. When the prices get to the point that they are upside down like they are now, there is definitely something wrong as I see it. It makes me a little bit sad to see that real honest history sometimes loses out to the notion that a bass was built by some master ninja Fender employee.
I know a lot of you guys have thought the same thing, see my point and agree. But I'm sort of surprised at how many people don't see any problem with this picture. When the prices get to the point that they are upside down like they are now, there is definitely something wrong as I see it. It makes me a little bit sad to see that real honest history sometimes loses out to the notion that a bass was built by some master ninja Fender employee.
I can't speak to the Masterbuilts, but it's clear that the "regular" Custom Shop models have jumped quite a bit in price over the past few years. And anecdotally, at least, there doesn't seem to have been a jump in quality.
At the same time, the prices of the boutiques that make Fender-style instruments--Lakland, Sadowsky, etc.--have been fairly stable lately.
I'd still buy a CS bass used at the right price, but the new prices seem out of whack right now IMO.
At the same time, the prices of the boutiques that make Fender-style instruments--Lakland, Sadowsky, etc.--have been fairly stable lately.
I'd still buy a CS bass used at the right price, but the new prices seem out of whack right now IMO.
Whats with all the complaining over multiple body pieces? If you cant see it under the finish and it sounds good, why would anyone care? Also the new thinner necks have extra graphite support rods which the old basses did not.
Burwabit
Likes guitars that tune good and firm feelin women
OP, I started to reply that I only look at sold listing on eBay not the stupid prices people list things for. So I did that and realized you are completely right. CS basses look really cool, but I wouldn't ever go that route. I'd probably use mjtele and make one myself.
I like a finish where I can see the woodgrain, not a painted finish. In that case the number of pieces matters. I have to admit that I don't like a guitar that's got poor matching of the pieces, so that the joins are plainly visible. That means that someone isn't trying very hard to match them. As an example of how well they can match a multi-piece bass when they're willing to try, take a look at the Honeyburst American Specials. The ones I've seen are nearly impossible to tell are multiple-piece bodies.
I'm not all enamored over the graphite rods either. I picked up an 09 Am Std Jazz last night and looked down the neck. Sharp turn in the first few frets, then nice, gradual relief. That sharp turn won't be going away with a trussrod adjustment.
Agreed. It is my understanding having 3 or more piece bodies is the norm, and always has been, it's the one piece body that has been rare and usually reserved for special run instruments. I had a hard time convincing a fellow TBer that my Squier VMs had two piece bodies until I posted a pic.
And as you say, the number of pieces has nothing to do with the final quality of the bass, all it does affect is the aesthetics of basses with transparent finishes.
That would depend entirely on what forces are driving the market price of each instrument. We're in a hyperinflationary period right now, with this ongoing quantitative easing. The value of the dollar is going down, and the price of everything that is denominated in dollars is going up. When the real buying power of the dollar gets cut in half, you should expect to see prices on things double.
What happens when the environment becomes inflationary? The replicas end up costing more to produce than the market price of the used originals. Marshall hand-wired amps are a fine example. It costs so much to build them by hand today that the prices for the new production amps are higher than the prices for the original amps. When that happens, people avoid the replicas and bid up the prices on the originals until the price on the originals rises to meet the current production cost of the replica.
You can ask whatever you want for an instrument - if there is someone willing to pay that asking price, you have a deal. No reason to complain, and in the end, it doesn't matter if these prices are higher than the real vintage ones. Therefore, I don't see a problem with high prices for Fender CS basses. If they find enough buyers on that level, good for them...
So the fact that folks are willing to pay thousands for 40 yr old basses does make sense to you? To rationlize they define it as mojo and it makes sense all of a sydden...nah
Sorry man ...cant join your band wagon but will say im proud to state I never have nor ever will own a Fender bass..
To each their own!
Sorry man ...cant join your band wagon but will say im proud to state I never have nor ever will own a Fender bass..
To each their own!
Or, buy pre-owned Fender Custom Shop guitars that come up for sale-WITH certificate of authenticity, of course!
Reselling a Custom Shop guitar without the COA is like selling a car without a title!
> So the fact that folks are willing to pay thousands for 40 yr old basses does make sense to you?
If someone has got the thousands, and they're willing to pay for something that's rare, collectible and hard to get, then why wouldn't it make sense?
In the end it all boils down to how much money you've got, what you want to buy, and how much you're likely to miss the money after you spend it. The perception of value is in the eye of the shopper. Obviously, expensive boutique gear will make no sense to people who are inclined to buy a Squier because they're price sensitive.
To be totally objective about it: the vintage gear and even the reproduction gear pricing relates to supply and demand. The supply of vintage basses is fixed in number and getting smaller. The supply of new production basses is potentially without limit. So there's a definite supply side difference in the market place between old and new. Old is hard to get. You have to hunt. You spend time and money. New is easy to get. You just spend money.
There's also a difference in demand. The new basses are made differently than the old ones. Some people want basses that are made the old way, and not basses that are built out of glued together scraps of wood. Those people aren't convinced that there's no difference, they think that there is a difference. It doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, their perception of the difference and their money supply defines their viewpoint on whether or not the pricing makes sense to them. The perception of value is an individual decision, not a universal truth.
> To rationlize they define it as mojo and it makes sense all of a sydden...nah
I don't buy into the "mojo" side of things at all, but that's just me. To me, I've always played the same instrument for 35 years. It feels right. The new production stuff feels wrong to me. If I want a new bass, my only options are to accept that basses are made today that just feel "wrong" to me, or to see if I can find a bass that feels "right" to me. If I'm willing to pay what it costs for something that feels right, then I'm purchasing something that has value to me. It really doesn't matter if someone else perceives that same value or not because it's going to be my instrument, not theirs. To me, mojo isn't even a factor in the equation.
Even though mojo means nothing to me personally, if the perception of mojo adds value for someone else, I don't see anything wrong with that.
If someone has got the thousands, and they're willing to pay for something that's rare, collectible and hard to get, then why wouldn't it make sense?
In the end it all boils down to how much money you've got, what you want to buy, and how much you're likely to miss the money after you spend it. The perception of value is in the eye of the shopper. Obviously, expensive boutique gear will make no sense to people who are inclined to buy a Squier because they're price sensitive.
To be totally objective about it: the vintage gear and even the reproduction gear pricing relates to supply and demand. The supply of vintage basses is fixed in number and getting smaller. The supply of new production basses is potentially without limit. So there's a definite supply side difference in the market place between old and new. Old is hard to get. You have to hunt. You spend time and money. New is easy to get. You just spend money.
There's also a difference in demand. The new basses are made differently than the old ones. Some people want basses that are made the old way, and not basses that are built out of glued together scraps of wood. Those people aren't convinced that there's no difference, they think that there is a difference. It doesn't matter if they're right or wrong, their perception of the difference and their money supply defines their viewpoint on whether or not the pricing makes sense to them. The perception of value is an individual decision, not a universal truth.
> To rationlize they define it as mojo and it makes sense all of a sydden...nah
I don't buy into the "mojo" side of things at all, but that's just me. To me, I've always played the same instrument for 35 years. It feels right. The new production stuff feels wrong to me. If I want a new bass, my only options are to accept that basses are made today that just feel "wrong" to me, or to see if I can find a bass that feels "right" to me. If I'm willing to pay what it costs for something that feels right, then I'm purchasing something that has value to me. It really doesn't matter if someone else perceives that same value or not because it's going to be my instrument, not theirs. To me, mojo isn't even a factor in the equation.
Even though mojo means nothing to me personally, if the perception of mojo adds value for someone else, I don't see anything wrong with that.
That right there's the Quote Of The Day, I'll tell you what..
I'm just glad I got a new signature quote from this thread.
Thanks!
Nice!
+1! I have 2 MJT basses and 1 on the way. I can say honestly, that the replicas I build for myself with the help of MJT's bodies and Musikraft necks are just as good as anything from the Custom Shop that I've ever played - and my self-built replicas are as or more historically accurate than what I can get from Fender. I still get to choose every aspect of my instrument (even more than the CS) and I'll usually only have about $1000-1500 into one of my replicas by the time it's all done.
Well, I'll bet Chef Ramsay could make a mean bowl of cereal!
+1. I have a '64 P-Bass, stripped and refinished just before I bought it, that has a FIVE-piece body.
Hyperinflation and the dollar falling dramatically? The numbers say otherwise. And indeed, gear prices in general have not gone up very much in recent years.
