Fender Rumble Club

[Drgonzonm]

Space. Many of the places we play I'm,maybe 6 feet in front of the rig. Any more and I'm in the dance area. Even with the wedge,the sound is going somewhere between my knees and my keester. Because I like a lot of bottom(from my amp)I like to have it in contact w/ the floor, either direct or through another cab-either a 210 or a 112-which I don't currently have. One, ONE,place we play has a big enough stage that I'm about 10 feet in front of my R200c

Do the math, 6 ft isn't far enough from the speaker to hear your low notes. at 40Hz, you need to be a least 7.5 ft for the quarter wave to develop. If you play a 5 string with a BO string, you need to further away. (use 1146 ft/sec for the speed of sound).

 

[GonePlaid]

Do the math, 6 ft isn't far enough from the speaker to hear your low notes. at 40Hz, you need to be a least 7.5 ft for the quarter wave to develop. If you play a 5 string with a BO string, you need to further away. (use 1146 ft/sec for the speed of sound).

Oh, I agree. But,as stated, we don't get a stage or bandstand. We get an"area",same level as the dance space. That 6' +/- is a luxury. On our smallest gigs I use a kickback Bassman 25. My ankles are touching the front of the amp. It's certainly not ideal but ya gotta work w/ what's there.

 

[rodl2005]

Do the math, 6 ft isn't far enough from the speaker to hear your low notes. at 40Hz, you need to be a least 7.5 ft for the quarter wave to develop. If you play a 5 string with a BO string, you need to further away. (use 1146 ft/sec for the speed of sound).

So. ... how do I hear the deep bass from ear phones etc???

 

[JKos]

Drgonzonm,
You obviously have no idea what sound is. In this case, pressure waves are generated by the motion of the speaker cone(s) and/or port. The sound does not need any distance to be heard. It's right there coming off the cone.

- John

 

[mesaplayer83]

Do the math, 6 ft isn't far enough from the speaker to hear your low notes. at 40Hz, you need to be a least 7.5 ft for the quarter wave to develop. If you play a 5 string with a BO string, you need to further away. (use 1146 ft/sec for the speed of sound).

That's a load of BS, to be frank...

 

[Hooskerdu]

Yeah. to us it's clarity,to them it's piercing. BTW, I played in some LOUD bands in the 70's. We didn't know about decent earplugs. The range I've lost is the normal female voice. I sometimes wonder how many times I got offstage and was asked"Wanna _____?" To which,ears ringing,I'd reply"We go back on in 20 minutes". These days I say"Huh?" a lot.

See all that we've missed out on being deaf musicians? Those "Wanna ______" moments don't come along often enough to miss out on them because we can't hear. (Hehe)

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I get your meaning but any constructive info on cab mixing is,at least,well,informative.

I get your meaning but any constructive info on cab mixing is,at least,well, amusing.
Fixed it for you.

 

[GonePlaid]

I get your meaning but any constructive info on cab mixing is,at least,well, amusing.
Fixed it for you.

As Styx would say"Domo Arigato".(which I learned in Japan LONG b4 Styx as a "guest"of the Navy)

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I know exactly what you mean although, as we get older, losing the female voice range can have it's advantages . In my case, I eventually lost volume in general which required $4K hearing aids. Playing bass with hearing aids is not all that bad, except when you want to practice with earphones...that is a PITA . I don't even want to think about what that $4K could have bought in the way of equipment .

If I were standing in a music store with $4K to spend, I'd probably pee myself and go catatonic.

 

[GonePlaid]

Oh, I agree. But,as stated, we don't get a stage or bandstand. We get an"area",same level as the dance space. That 6' +/- is a luxury. On our smallest gigs I use a kickback Bassman 25. My ankles are touching the front of the amp. It's certainly not ideal but ya gotta work w/ what's there.

My ankles no longer touch the front of the amp,the legs of my stool do the touching(72 y/o knees)

 

[GonePlaid]

If I were standing in a music store with $4K to spend, I'd probably pee myself and go catatonic.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

...I think people argue that there is less ‘coherence’ (whatever that means), when mixing cabs? Is there any provable degradation in efficiency?

I’m earnestly and naively asking these questions and not trying to cause a ruckus.

Gravedigger Dav, I hope I've expressed this clearly enough that you won't see this some kind of "cab nazi" BS.

The short version:

There's no "loss of efficiency" involved in mixing cabs.

A tall, skinny stack of matched cabs will have better dispersion and be easier for you to hear in some circumstances.

Still, there are plenty of moderately mismatched stack options that will sound fine on the gig.

...IF you know what you're doing.

However, you can blow stuff up if you get it wrong.

The long version:

One of the classic mistakes that technical types warn about, is screwing up the proper order when mixing 4 and 8 ohm cabs.

Power distribution is driven strictly by impedance. Unless your amp has a biamp output like an old G-K, there's no magic splitter circuit in there to protect your cabs from ignorance.

As long as your mismatched cabs have the right driver count and the correct impedance, everything will be fine.

Here's just one example of the safe cab mixing method:

• You want a 610 stack, to be driven by a 500 watt, 2 ohm capable head.
• You already have a 4 ohm, 400 watt 4*10.
• You buy an 8 Ohm, 200 watt 2*10 to go with it.
• Both cabs are loaded with 16 Ohm, 100 watt drivers.

Wired the normal way (both cabs in parallel), the amp will see a 2.7 ohm load, which won't hurt it.

In this setup, the 4*10 should be hit with 335 watts or thereabouts, and the 2*10 with about 165. Each driver will have some headroom left. They will all be handling the same amount of power, and moving roughly the same amount of air.

Booties will be shaken, you get to hear yourself, and everybody wins.


Then there's the "hold my beer" method:

• Bubba normally runs his Rumble 800 head into a fancy 800 watt 8 ohm 4*10.
• He finds a cheap 200 watt, 4 ohm 2*10 at a yard sale.
• He figures that 800 + 200 = 1000 watts power handling capacity.
• The new stack sounds pretty good at low levels in his basement.
• So, he takes it to an outdoor gig and cranks it.

To his surprise, it sounds like ass at full volume, and the cheap 2*10 ***** the bed before the first break.

He gets kicked out of the band, and his girlfriend leaves him.


The left pane of this diagram explains why (kudos to geoffthegreygeek.com):

The 8-ohm speaker in the diagram could just as easily be any 8 Ohm cab, regardless of how many drivers are in the box.

Ditto for the 4-ohm load.

In Bubba's case, the Rumble proceeded to dump all 800 watts of chewy Fender goodness to the speaker output.

The destruction of the 2*10 wasn't rocket science, just Ohms law from any first-year textbook:

• The 2*10 would have been wired up with two 8 Ohm, 100w drivers in parallel.
• The 4*10 was probably loaded with 16 Ohm, 200w units.
• Because of the 67/33% power split between the two cabs, the 4 Ohm 2*10 saw about 536 watts.
• That left about 264 to drive the 4*10.
• The drivers in the 4*10 were loafing along at about 66 watts each.
• With only two drivers in the 2*10, each voice coil received close to 270 watts.

No wonder they fried like bacon at a pancake breakfast...

 

[GonePlaid]

Please believe me when I say that the following isn't some kind of "cab nazi" BS.

The short version:

There's no "loss of efficiency" involved in mixing cabs.

A tall, skinny stack of matched cabs will have better dispersion and be easier for you to hear in some circumstances.

Still, there are plenty of moderately mismatched stack options that will sound fine on the gig.

...IF you know what you're doing.

However, you can blow stuff up if you get it wrong.

The long version:

One of the classic mistakes that technical types warn about, is screwing up the proper order when mixing 4 and 8 ohm cabs.

Power distribution is driven strictly by impedance. Unless your amp has a biamp output like an old G-K, there's no magic splitter circuit in there to protect your cabs from ignorance.

As long as your mismatched cabs have the right driver count and the correct impedance, everything will be fine.

Here's just one example of the safe cab mixing method:

• 
  
  • You want a 610 stack, to be driven by a 500 watt, 2 ohm capable head.
  • You already have a 4 ohm, 400 watt 4*10.
  • You buy an 8 Ohm, 200 watt 2*10 to go with it.
  • Both cabs are loaded with 16 Ohm, 100 watt drivers.

Wired the normal way (both cabs in parallel), the amp will see a 2.7 ohm load, which won't hurt it.

The 4*10 should be hit with 335 watts or thereabouts, and the 2*10 with about 165. Each driver has some headroom left. They will all be handling the same amount of power, and moving roughly the same amount of air.

Booties will be shaken, you get to hear yourself, and everybody wins.


Then there's the "hold my beer" method:

• Bubba normally runs his Rumble 800 head into a fancy 800 watt 8 ohm 4*10.
• He finds a cheap 200 watt, 4 ohm 2*10 at a yard sale.
• He figures that 800 + 200 = 1000 watts power handling capacity.
• The new stack sounds pretty good at low levels in his basement.
• So, he takes it to an outdoor gig and cranks it.

To his surprise, it sounds like ass at full volume, and the cheap 2*10 ***** the bed before the first break.

He gets kicked out of the band, and his girlfriend leaves him.


The left pane of this diagram explains why (kudos to geoffthegreygeek.com):

View attachment 2966101


The 8-ohm speaker in the diagram could just as easily be any 8 Ohm cab, regardless of how many drivers are in the box.

Ditto for the 4-ohm load.

In Bubba's case, the Rumble proceeded to dump all 800 watts of chewy Fender goodness to the speaker output.

The destruction of the 2*10 wasn't rocket science, just Ohms law from any first-year textbook:

• The 2*10 would have been wired up with two 8 Ohm, 100w drivers in parallel.
• The 4*10 was probably loaded with 16 Ohm, 200w units.
• Because of the 67/33% power split between the two cabs, the 4 Ohm 2*10 saw about 536 watts.
• That left about 264 to drive the 4*10.
• The drivers in the 4*10 were loafing along at about 66 watts each.
• With only two drivers in the 2*10, each voice coil received close to 270 watts.

No wonder they fried like bacon at a pancake breakfast...

Mmmmm,Bacon!

 

[Drgonzonm]

Drgonzonm,
You obviously have no idea what sound is. In this case, pressure waves are generated by the motion of the speaker cone(s) and/or port. The sound does not need any distance to be heard. It's right there coming off the cone.

- John

76

That's a load of BS, to be frank...

case 1, the bass you hear, is a mixture of frequencies. Most of the time you don't hear the lower frequencies
Case 2, you hear a difference in your voice when you speak, and when you hear a recording.
Case 3, maybe you are too young to remember tuning an attenna to get a better signal,
Case 4, the combing effect, and the reason you are better off stacking amps.
Case 5, placement of monitors and use of monitors
1146 ft/sec × 1/40-sec/vib= wave length which is 28.7 ft. Take quarter wave the value is now a little more than 7 ft.

 

[Alfonso Alba]

76

case 1, the bass you hear, is a mixture of frequencies. Most of the time you don't hear the lower frequencies
Case 2, you hear a difference in your voice when you speak, and when you hear a recording.
Case 3, maybe you are too young to remember tuning an attenna to get a better signal,
Case 4, the combing effect, and the reason you are better off stacking amps.
Case 5, placement of monitors and use of monitors
1146 ft/sec × 1/40-sec/vib= wave length which is 28.7 ft. Take quarter wave the value is now a little more than 7 ft.

What you are talking about is the phase cancellation effect that occurs when the same sound is coming from different speakers a certain distance apart. It has nothing to do with being able to hear a sound from a single speaker.

You can hear any sound from a single speaker no matter what distance you are from the speaker. The only difference will be in power (which decays with distance) and phase (which our ears are insensitive to). Now, the room reflections might cause phase interference, but in that case, the closer you are to the speaker, the less the room will affect the sound you hear.

 

[G-Dog]

Then there's the "hold my beer" method:

• Bubba normally runs his Rumble 800 head into a fancy 800 watt 8 ohm 4*10.

No wonder they fried like bacon at a pancake breakfast...

Did my fantasy drawing of a Rumble Stage 800 head a few pages back make you think there really was one? Naaaaaw!!! But I can dream, can't I?

 

[GonePlaid]

Did my fantasy drawing of a Rumble Stage 800 head a few pages back make you think there really was one? Naaaaaw!!! But I can dream, can't I?

Email it to Fender. Who knows....?

 

[mesaplayer83]

.

Just more BS - you are wrong here, but apparently unable to realize it...

 

[G-Dog]

Email it to Fender. Who knows....?

I've heard they lurk this forum in general, and this thread in particular!

 

[Moody Tuner]

Gravedigger Dav, I hope I've expressed this clearly enough that you won't see this some kind of "cab nazi" BS.

The short version:

There's no "loss of efficiency" involved in mixing cabs.

A tall, skinny stack of matched cabs will have better dispersion and be easier for you to hear in some circumstances.

Still, there are plenty of moderately mismatched stack options that will sound fine on the gig.

...IF you know what you're doing.

However, you can blow stuff up if you get it wrong.

The long version:

One of the classic mistakes that technical types warn about, is screwing up the proper order when mixing 4 and 8 ohm cabs.

Power distribution is driven strictly by impedance. Unless your amp has a biamp output like an old G-K, there's no magic splitter circuit in there to protect your cabs from ignorance.

As long as your mismatched cabs have the right driver count and the correct impedance, everything will be fine.

Here's just one example of the safe cab mixing method:

• 
  
  
  • You want a 610 stack, to be driven by a 500 watt, 2 ohm capable head.
  • You already have a 4 ohm, 400 watt 4*10.
  • You buy an 8 Ohm, 200 watt 2*10 to go with it.
  • Both cabs are loaded with 16 Ohm, 100 watt drivers.

Wired the normal way (both cabs in parallel), the amp will see a 2.7 ohm load, which won't hurt it.

In this setup, the 4*10 should be hit with 335 watts or thereabouts, and the 2*10 with about 165. Each driver will have some headroom left. They will all be handling the same amount of power, and moving roughly the same amount of air.

Booties will be shaken, you get to hear yourself, and everybody wins.


Then there's the "hold my beer" method:

• Bubba normally runs his Rumble 800 head into a fancy 800 watt 8 ohm 4*10.
• He finds a cheap 200 watt, 4 ohm 2*10 at a yard sale.
• He figures that 800 + 200 = 1000 watts power handling capacity.
• The new stack sounds pretty good at low levels in his basement.
• So, he takes it to an outdoor gig and cranks it.

To his surprise, it sounds like ass at full volume, and the cheap 2*10 ***** the bed before the first break.

He gets kicked out of the band, and his girlfriend leaves him.


The left pane of this diagram explains why (kudos to geoffthegreygeek.com):

View attachment 2966101


The 8-ohm speaker in the diagram could just as easily be any 8 Ohm cab, regardless of how many drivers are in the box.

Ditto for the 4-ohm load.

In Bubba's case, the Rumble proceeded to dump all 800 watts of chewy Fender goodness to the speaker output.

The destruction of the 2*10 wasn't rocket science, just Ohms law from any first-year textbook:

• The 2*10 would have been wired up with two 8 Ohm, 100w drivers in parallel.
• The 4*10 was probably loaded with 16 Ohm, 200w units.
• Because of the 67/33% power split between the two cabs, the 4 Ohm 2*10 saw about 536 watts.
• That left about 264 to drive the 4*10.
• The drivers in the 4*10 were loafing along at about 66 watts each.
• With only two drivers in the 2*10, each voice coil received close to 270 watts.

No wonder they fried like bacon at a pancake breakfast...

Thank you for taking the time to write this detailed response!!!! Very helpful!