Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Fender vs. Musicman vs.G&L
- Thread starter Papajewrry
- Start date
Man
Man, if somebody's got a 63 1/2 Mustang, that is one hell of a rare car. I sure would like to see that thing.
Man, if somebody's got a 63 1/2 Mustang, that is one hell of a rare car. I sure would like to see that thing.
Maybe, I don't know. The classic chicken/egg question.That's because they don't sell well.
I was a Fender dealer '77-'88, and a G&L dealer '81- about '84 (I think). I bought my first Music Man gear (a 212RH cabinet) in late summer '76 [edited from 75]. I bought an HD-130 head in December '77, and a StingRay in '79, all new, even though we weren't a MM dealer.
The OP conflate market success with a conglomerate of think we call "quality". That leads to a lot of factors that confuse things.
I got the HD-130 because the Fender Bassman 100 wasn't a very good sounding amp to my ears. Many people who saw it asked about my "Fender copy" amp. Even with that full-page ad on the inside back cover of Guitar Player every month, most people didn't really know MM. And TB tends to ignore or discount the need for the guitars and amps to be successful in order for dealers to want to carry product, especially up to about 1990.
G&L had marketing problems too. The in-fighting at MM wasn't well known so when G&L came our touting Leo, the market was confused. The guitars were great, but lottsa knob & switches which put off a lot of players. I loved the F- and G-100 but I love real Jazzmasters too..
And G&L was just gaining traction when Fender introduced the Vintage Series, which was a HUGE boost to their reputation, market awareness, and sales.
Then after selling G&L as Leo's next evolution, they (G&L) introduced decidedly non-Leo designs. Those guitars with Kahler trems and generic Schaller humucking PUPs were the very antithesis of the original innovative products. Plus they piss ed off a bunch if dealers by announcing a price decrease right after filling huge back orders at the old, higher prices, and changing from ebony to rosewood boards without notice. Dealers stopped being excited about G&L, Music Man was in shambles, and Fender had a plan and product people wanted.
That set the stage for a lot of the market driven results. Personal anecdotes aside, the success in the market is frequently not at all correlated to objective quality (e. g. VHS/Betamax, PC/Mac, Eagles/Poco, etc.)
Personally, I love my 'VS '62 P I got new in 1983, and while I kinda miss my pre EB 'Ray it's not something I yearn for. I almost got an early L-1000 ebony board, but the new G&Ls I've played remind me of Taylor acoustic guitars- very well made, nice designs, good ideas, and utterly unremarkable.
The OP conflate market success with a conglomerate of think we call "quality". That leads to a lot of factors that confuse things.
I got the HD-130 because the Fender Bassman 100 wasn't a very good sounding amp to my ears. Many people who saw it asked about my "Fender copy" amp. Even with that full-page ad on the inside back cover of Guitar Player every month, most people didn't really know MM. And TB tends to ignore or discount the need for the guitars and amps to be successful in order for dealers to want to carry product, especially up to about 1990.
G&L had marketing problems too. The in-fighting at MM wasn't well known so when G&L came our touting Leo, the market was confused. The guitars were great, but lottsa knob & switches which put off a lot of players. I loved the F- and G-100 but I love real Jazzmasters too..
And G&L was just gaining traction when Fender introduced the Vintage Series, which was a HUGE boost to their reputation, market awareness, and sales.
Then after selling G&L as Leo's next evolution, they (G&L) introduced decidedly non-Leo designs. Those guitars with Kahler trems and generic Schaller humucking PUPs were the very antithesis of the original innovative products. Plus they piss ed off a bunch if dealers by announcing a price decrease right after filling huge back orders at the old, higher prices, and changing from ebony to rosewood boards without notice. Dealers stopped being excited about G&L, Music Man was in shambles, and Fender had a plan and product people wanted.
That set the stage for a lot of the market driven results. Personal anecdotes aside, the success in the market is frequently not at all correlated to objective quality (e. g. VHS/Betamax, PC/Mac, Eagles/Poco, etc.)
Personally, I love my 'VS '62 P I got new in 1983, and while I kinda miss my pre EB 'Ray it's not something I yearn for. I almost got an early L-1000 ebony board, but the new G&Ls I've played remind me of Taylor acoustic guitars- very well made, nice designs, good ideas, and utterly unremarkable.
I’m a P-bass guy. I have owned several high-end Fenders, a Stingray Classic and a LB-100. They were all very nice, played great with a good setup, and sounded good. The only one I still own is the LB-100. The others have been passed along.
I believe Leo brought incremental improvement to the P design with each successive company. That said, my impression is that the overall quality is about the same for the US-made models from each company.
Just my opinion based on my experience.
I believe Leo brought incremental improvement to the P design with each successive company. That said, my impression is that the overall quality is about the same for the US-made models from each company.
Just my opinion based on my experience.
in the 8 basses I've owned, all are Leo designs. Squiers (x3), Fenders(x2), EBMM's(x2) and G&L (x1). It certainly wasn't intended to be that way, and I am sure I will own none-Leo designs in the future. I currently own a 2003 EBMM SUB and G&L SB-2 Tribute. Both of which I don't see myself selling, both are excellent basses. I love everything about them.
I live in an urban area that has close to 6 million people within a 1 hour drive in any direction. You'd think there would be a G&L dealer somewhere with at least 4 basses in stock. The last dealer I was in to see, had two, a US Kiliton and the owners 1500, which wasn't for sale. He'd be happy to order me one though. G&L's are hens teeth in Canada. You can't buy them without a custom order.
My Tribute was the first G&L I ever played, in fact, I never played it before I bought it. Purchased solely on reputation and it didn't disappoint. G&L makes a good product which I can highly recommend, but until they can get them in stores were kids can have a slapfest on them and people can try them out, they will remain rare. That's OK by me though, makes my humble little Tribute a rare beast.
I'm still trying to swallow that jagged little pill of a headstock, certainly not my favorite design, but I can overlook that because it plays and sounds so great. These basses would sell themselves if people can walk into their local shop and noodle away while their kids are taking guitar lessons.
I live in an urban area that has close to 6 million people within a 1 hour drive in any direction. You'd think there would be a G&L dealer somewhere with at least 4 basses in stock. The last dealer I was in to see, had two, a US Kiliton and the owners 1500, which wasn't for sale. He'd be happy to order me one though. G&L's are hens teeth in Canada. You can't buy them without a custom order.
My Tribute was the first G&L I ever played, in fact, I never played it before I bought it. Purchased solely on reputation and it didn't disappoint. G&L makes a good product which I can highly recommend, but until they can get them in stores were kids can have a slapfest on them and people can try them out, they will remain rare. That's OK by me though, makes my humble little Tribute a rare beast.
I'm still trying to swallow that jagged little pill of a headstock, certainly not my favorite design, but I can overlook that because it plays and sounds so great. These basses would sell themselves if people can walk into their local shop and noodle away while their kids are taking guitar lessons.
Fender was bought up by CBS and was just a bigger company. Music Man spends a fortune on marketing and artist relations. To this day G&L is still much smaller than the others. I think for Mr. Fender G&L was more of a project to continue to innovate and make new tweaks to his original ideas. Follow CLF Research on FB. They highlight a lot of the things he did @ G&L.
That's because they don't sell well.
I think I've only tried two in my life - I don't frequent shops much, but when I do, I don't see them.
I like all three of his companies. I think they just became more and more "refined" as time went on. I think G&L came along at a time when the Fender name was already so huge that nothing could have put a serious dent in it. Aside from being fine instruments for the buck, I always appreciated G&L's small company vibe – especially the ability to order G&Ls to spec without having the price doubled or tripled. I remember going down to the factory with my dad in the '80's, to pick up the Skyhawk he had special ordered. It was incredible to be able to just walk right in to the factory and pick it up. That is their greatest "feature" IMO; you don't have to compromise any major specs. You don't have to get the color you don't like just to get the neck shape or the frets you like, you don't need to swap out the standard white guard for the tortoise guard you really want, and so on.
FWIW, I own, and have long relationships with, instruments from all of these companies. In fact, I've never owned a bass outside of these three companies that I considered a "keeper." I learned on my dad's '77 Music Man fretless for several years, then moved to a slightly used like-new '96 L-2000 fretless in '96 ($400 score). Since I discovered the beauty of fretted basses, I have almost exclusively been using Fenders: Franken-P and my dad's old '70's Musicmaster in the past 10–12 years. I still have all of these, and I just added a '64 AVRI Jazz and a '58 AVRI P as well (but have not put them into "real" service yet).
Looking back, I see that the modern electronics and fretless necks of the Music Man and the G&L no longer appeal to me. I regressed to classic style Fender basses, and I prefer them. I realize now that those other basses had a bunch of crap that I didn't use, even a little. I don't know exactly which switch does what on my L-2000 unless I fiddle with them or look it up online. I just set them the way that sounded good to me in 1996, and they haven't been moved since (turns out I was always using the bassier pickup, with series coils, with the pre-amp off – or something like that. Bottom line, I might as well have been playing a P). The Music Man and L-2000 are also kind of ugly to me (both have clear finishes), plus the Music Man is heavy as hell. What I do like from G&L these days are their "conservative" instruments, i.e. their well built versions of classic Fenders, just able to be custom spec'd, unlike Fenders. ASAT Classic, Legacy, JB, LB, etc. To me, their value is as just a good, smallish, more approachable version of Fender – probably a lot like Fender was in its early days. For sentimental reasons, I won't give up my '77 Music Man or my L-2000, but I certainly wouldn't buy them today.
FWIW, I own, and have long relationships with, instruments from all of these companies. In fact, I've never owned a bass outside of these three companies that I considered a "keeper." I learned on my dad's '77 Music Man fretless for several years, then moved to a slightly used like-new '96 L-2000 fretless in '96 ($400 score). Since I discovered the beauty of fretted basses, I have almost exclusively been using Fenders: Franken-P and my dad's old '70's Musicmaster in the past 10–12 years. I still have all of these, and I just added a '64 AVRI Jazz and a '58 AVRI P as well (but have not put them into "real" service yet).
Looking back, I see that the modern electronics and fretless necks of the Music Man and the G&L no longer appeal to me. I regressed to classic style Fender basses, and I prefer them. I realize now that those other basses had a bunch of crap that I didn't use, even a little. I don't know exactly which switch does what on my L-2000 unless I fiddle with them or look it up online. I just set them the way that sounded good to me in 1996, and they haven't been moved since (turns out I was always using the bassier pickup, with series coils, with the pre-amp off – or something like that. Bottom line, I might as well have been playing a P). The Music Man and L-2000 are also kind of ugly to me (both have clear finishes), plus the Music Man is heavy as hell. What I do like from G&L these days are their "conservative" instruments, i.e. their well built versions of classic Fenders, just able to be custom spec'd, unlike Fenders. ASAT Classic, Legacy, JB, LB, etc. To me, their value is as just a good, smallish, more approachable version of Fender – probably a lot like Fender was in its early days. For sentimental reasons, I won't give up my '77 Music Man or my L-2000, but I certainly wouldn't buy them today.
Last edited:
They're all 1st rate mass produced instruments. P's and to a lesser extent J's defined the low frequency sounds of +95% all records produced from the mid-fifties at least through the late 70's. As you become a bassist and can afford your 1st good instrument it makes sense that you would opt for a P or a J.
Interesting perspective!
Yeah, too often people confuse success with producing something of value. That's only a part of the picture.
For example, people are often convinced to buy something based on marketing rather than any intrinsic value it would provide to them. That branded soup can is in higher demand than the off-brand one in spite of them being made in the same factory, that sort of thing.
Often it boils down to timing more than anything. People had great ideas that never took off, yet someone repeats the same idea later and it works out.
I'm sure there is a good reason why G&L continues to do what they're doing, but I always wondered why they don't make their own interactive "configurator" for the instruments. You could even put an interactive kiosk in a Guitar Center and have the instruments ordered from the kiosk, then drop-shipped after they're done. Give the store a cut based on kiosk sales.
On the other hand, they also don't offer much for imports, which is one area of the business they may be able to do well in if they were to pursue it harder.
It's probably a matter of keeping the lights on, and not wanting to overextend themselves. However taking a few risks might pay off big time.
That'd be great, but G&L is too small a company. They're a limited outfit, only having expanded recently – still quite mom and pop/rinky dink in a way. They don't produce that many instruments. They wouldn't be able to handle the load of becoming "big." That's kind of their charm.
There was a dealer (midwest, I think) that made their own online "configurator," complete with visual preview, from which the customer spec'd order sheet could be directly produced and sent to G&L by the retailer. I don't remember their name. American Band and Musical, maybe? It was awesome to play around with. Unfortunately, that retailer went out of business, I think – or perhaps just stopped carrying G&L.
Boy - I remember the original G&L push had about 10 L-1000/2000s hanging along the wall at Sam Ash on NYC's 48th Street, which is where I bought this once-white L-1000. I was shopping to replace a stolen P Bass, and believe me, I tried everything -- this blew everything away sonically and I threw down that $400 and never looked back. The truth is, I've NEVER seen them in similar numbers since. Whether chicken or egg, if you can't find them, you can't buy them.
Right, I figured as much. "Keep the lights on, and people paid"
They do produce a fair number of instruments if you view their website (inventory) and facebook/instagram, but the revenue from instruments probably puts it in the hundreds per unit for a 1.5k+ instrument. Dealers get profits too.
It'd take some investment from the outside most likely to push it. I'd probably start by offering more imports and building my own "configurator" at the website. I'd leave the configurator there for marketing initially. You could hook it in with a "contact local dealer!" functionality that forwards them the spec sheet when the user agrees to make contact. It may not pay off initially but it would likely drive some sales and notice, increasing over time if all efforts are successful.
One thing G&L seems to do really well is offering that customization in a factory setting and price range. I recall talking with or reading something from Greg at Rocket Music where he mentioned something to that effect. They consider themselves a factory, assembling products, not a boutique builder. If they could scale it up it would be awesome.
On the other hand, if I had a successful company that provided for my lifestyle, I might just decide to leave it be. I can understand that point of view as well. In fact, maybe the better one in a world of big box stores and multinational companies.
I remember that site with the other configurator. I thought it was still up for awhile afterwards, but I do recall the dealer stopped doing business for some reason.
Last edited:
I feel reasonably qualified to chime in on this, since I have a few of Leo's creations:
'57 Precision Custom Shop RI
'58 Precision MIJ RI
'83 Precision Elite II
'64 Jazz Custom Shop RI
G&L L2000, maple fb
G&L L2000, rosewood fb
StingRay 4 HH
StingRay 4 Ball Family Reserve
StingRay 5
Every single one of them is a fantastic instrument for what it is.
The poster who said "Strawberry, Chocolate or Vanilla?" said it the best.
Each of these basses does exactly what it was designed to do, and does it very, very well.
So which was the best design?
Well, if you want to take historical context into account, obviously the Precision was the most groundbreaking, as it provided a foundation on which everything else has been built, and it sounds as great today as it did 67 years ago. I am not sure it was complex enough to call it "revolutionary", but one could perhaps argue that it was. Its ubiquity in recording sessions and live stages over the past 60+ years proves beyond any doubt or debate that it was a winning design.
In that sense, adding a second pickup and the ability to use one or the other or both to achieve a much greater variety of sounds was also a fantastic design achievement. I am not sure if that would be considered revolutionary or evolutionary.
To me personally, the tonal flexibility of the L2000 makes it one of the most amazing basses I have played, of any brand. The combination of knobs and switches provides 18 distinct, instantly selectable sounds, almost all of which are usable in the real world, and that's before even touching the tone controls! That flexibility is tough beat. Almost all of those sounds are really, really good. The MFD pickups are great, and the bodies and necks are just as well made and comfortable to play as all the others fine instruments Leo spawned.
Very few other basses I have seen have the degree of tonal flexibility that the L2000 has. (I understand Wal basses can do some amazing things too, but I have yet to see one myself.)
The StingRay is also a really great instrument, but it has fewer choices than the L2000 in terms of the number of distinct tones you can dial in. The tones it has, though, are extremely cool, and instantly recognizable as "MusicMan" tones in a quality recording.
Summary
----------
Q. Which one is "best"?
A. It depends on who is playing it, and how they are playing it, and what style they are playing.
Alternate answer: If the Producer says "I want you to use an <xxx> for this part", then the <xxx> is the best.
'57 Precision Custom Shop RI
'58 Precision MIJ RI
'83 Precision Elite II
'64 Jazz Custom Shop RI
G&L L2000, maple fb
G&L L2000, rosewood fb
StingRay 4 HH
StingRay 4 Ball Family Reserve
StingRay 5
Every single one of them is a fantastic instrument for what it is.
The poster who said "Strawberry, Chocolate or Vanilla?" said it the best.
Each of these basses does exactly what it was designed to do, and does it very, very well.
So which was the best design?
Well, if you want to take historical context into account, obviously the Precision was the most groundbreaking, as it provided a foundation on which everything else has been built, and it sounds as great today as it did 67 years ago. I am not sure it was complex enough to call it "revolutionary", but one could perhaps argue that it was. Its ubiquity in recording sessions and live stages over the past 60+ years proves beyond any doubt or debate that it was a winning design.
In that sense, adding a second pickup and the ability to use one or the other or both to achieve a much greater variety of sounds was also a fantastic design achievement. I am not sure if that would be considered revolutionary or evolutionary.
To me personally, the tonal flexibility of the L2000 makes it one of the most amazing basses I have played, of any brand. The combination of knobs and switches provides 18 distinct, instantly selectable sounds, almost all of which are usable in the real world, and that's before even touching the tone controls! That flexibility is tough beat. Almost all of those sounds are really, really good. The MFD pickups are great, and the bodies and necks are just as well made and comfortable to play as all the others fine instruments Leo spawned.
Very few other basses I have seen have the degree of tonal flexibility that the L2000 has. (I understand Wal basses can do some amazing things too, but I have yet to see one myself.)
The StingRay is also a really great instrument, but it has fewer choices than the L2000 in terms of the number of distinct tones you can dial in. The tones it has, though, are extremely cool, and instantly recognizable as "MusicMan" tones in a quality recording.
Summary
----------
Q. Which one is "best"?
A. It depends on who is playing it, and how they are playing it, and what style they are playing.
Alternate answer: If the Producer says "I want you to use an <xxx> for this part", then the <xxx> is the best.
Last edited:
Sort of another thread, but of all the reasons why that is true - I think the most important two are:
- Fender had a head start, they had large volumes of those instruments in the world years before anyone else.
- A precision bass provides a fundamental-rich tone that occupies a pretty small space in the spectrum which is where the bass is probably supposed to be. People say it "sits well in the mix" but really it might be more accurate to say that it "doesn't get in the way." Fo the same reasons, it's not a great tone where you want the bass to be forward or "featured" in the band's sound.
G&L basses sound GREAT and are built very, very well. The electronics might be too clever by half, and at their price point maybe they are a little plain looking. Also, P-basses are simply good enough for many, many people, so why bother.
I don't have a G&L, but I would like to.
Last edited:
