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File sharing doesn't hurt musicians

#461
bkbirge said:
No strawman
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You can't ask a question, then answer it and then come to a conclusion. You built a straw-man (that many who complain about intellectual property theft are doing the same thing) and then attacked it in that last post.

Since you asked the question in order to receive information about whether it was true, you can't then come to the conclusion you did regardless of whether it was true or not because no information was presented. Logically fallacious.
 
#462
michael_atw said:
You can't ask a question, then answer it and then come to a conclusion. You built a straw-man (that many who complain about intellectual property theft are doing the same thing) and then attacked it in that last post.

Since you asked the question in order to receive information about whether it was true, you can't then come to the conclusion you did regardless of whether it was true or not because no information was presented. Logically fallacious.
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I didn't answer my question. My question was a how many and what kind of demographics. My opinion afterwards though related was not part of the question, it simply stated that musicians who bitch about illegally downloading music but who also pirate apps to make music are hypocrites.

A strawman always boils down to an attempt to divert the conversation from the main topic, that is not what I did. Logically fallacious it is not, unless you assume things in my post that I simply did not say.
 
#463
michael_atw said:
Yep. It's happening in visual arts, writing (see '50 Shades of Absolute Trash' and fanfiction), etc. Photography has been destroyed by high quality tech and low skill people.

You also need to look at it like this: look at who is winning Grammys (which is a pretty respected structure). Jack White, Alabama Shakes, The Black Keys are only some examples of bands that are wholly re-treading and yet get huge accolades.

As an aside, I enjoy Jack White and Alabama Shakes (and a little Black Keys) but the reality is they bring nothing new to the table.
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Music, photography, writing, etc have not been destroyed. There is plenty of good stuff around if one would take about 2 minutes and look for it. .
And let's be honest. After The Beatles has anyone really brought anything mind blowing to the table in rock? Other than "hey I played that with distortion!" or "Most people would play that riff with a guitar, but we did it with something else!" The fact is other than a few key musicians in history no one brings much really new to the table.
 
#466
AaronVonRock said:
Using the broken window analogy, I was trying to think of an example where a business let their product be taken for free for over 10 years through their own negligence, then finally corrected their mistake, and were still able to stay in business by expecting consumers to start spending money on their product again.
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There is so much fuzzy thinking in this statement that I can't think of where to start.
You must be incredible limber with all that twisting going on.

You're actually saying that it's a musician's own damn fault that file sharers are actively ripping them off? And that musicians are SOL if they ever expect to get paid for their work again even if they finally do manage to fix the problem?

This isn't about a business or even an industry, it's about a set of social behaviors that tramples an individual rights.

When viewed from that perspective, one can find lots of examples of social behaviors that, while morally wrong, were eventually put right even when powerful economic, cultural and political forces lined up to oppose change:

Feudalism
Serfdom
Slavery
Child labor
Women's suffrage

At the heart of each of these examples is the question of a person's human rights and the determined efforts of a lot of people to maintain the status quo. IMHO you guys are on the wrong side of history here.
 
#467
rocksmoot said:
There is so much fuzzy thinking in this statement that I can't think of where to start.
You must be incredible limber with all that twisting going on.

You're actually saying that it's a musician's own damn fault that file sharers are actively ripping them off? And that musicians are SOL if they ever expect to get paid for their work again even if they finally do manage to fix the problem?

This isn't about a business or even an industry, it's about a set of social behaviors that tramples an individual rights.

When viewed from that perspective, one can find lots of examples of social behaviors that, while morally wrong, were eventually put right even when powerful economic, cultural and political forces lined up to oppose change:

Feudalism
Serfdom
Slavery
Child labor
Women's suffrage

At the heart of each of these examples is the question of a person's human rights and the determined efforts of a lot of people to maintain the status quo. IMHO you guys are on the wrong side of history here.
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Damn, you're good :-)
 
#470
blue4 said:
Like what out of curiosity?
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Yes, rush, Hendrix, enya, Thomas dolby, blue man group (arguably rock music), radiohead...

Off the top of my head they all invented wild new styles or sounds or uses of their technology previously unheard in pop culture, equal to that of the Beatles, and like the Beatles other folks were doing some great things simultaneously who were overlooked because of the spotlight being on the more famous artists.

And I'm a HUGE Beatles fan by the way...huge
 
#471
rocksmoot said:
This isn't about a business or even an industry, it's about a set of social behaviors that tramples an individual rights.

At the heart of each of these examples is the question of a person's human rights and the determined efforts of a lot of people to maintain the status quo. IMHO you guys are on the wrong side of history here.
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We can agree to disagree on everything, I think. Give this a quick read from the founder of isoHunt:

"One would think we the people of the Internet are losing to the copyright cartels, but I think different. I saw solidarity against tyranny in protests against SOPA, which did not pass (happy coincident that Internet Freedom Day, Jan. 18 when SOPA failed, is so close to our anniversary). I see musicians and filmmakers slowly but surely warming up to new possibilities of Internet distribution and promotion, abandoning notions of "1 download = 1 lost sale" in the physical age. Ideals of the Free Software movement and Creative Commons will face new challenges with 3D printed copies of physical objects, replicated from copyrightable digital designs. We are moving into the world of science fiction. Will copyright or even money be relics like in Star Trek, where all material scarcity and wants are gone, replicators can make anything needed, and holodecks can create any world imaginable? Too utopian perhaps, but if someone from 100 years ago is to look at technologies we have now, a lot of it maybe construed as magic too."
 
#473
AaronVonRock said:
We can agree to disagree on everything, I think. Give this a quick read from the founder of isoHunt:

"One would think we the people of the Internet are losing to the copyright cartels, but I think different. I saw solidarity against tyranny in protests against SOPA, which did not pass (happy coincident that Internet Freedom Day, Jan. 18 when SOPA failed, is so close to our anniversary). I see musicians and filmmakers slowly but surely warming up to new possibilities of Internet distribution and promotion, abandoning notions of "1 download = 1 lost sale" in the physical age. Ideals of the Free Software movement and Creative Commons will face new challenges with 3D printed copies of physical objects, replicated from copyrightable digital designs. We are moving into the world of science fiction. Will copyright or even money be relics like in Star Trek, where all material scarcity and wants are gone, replicators can make anything needed, and holodecks can create any world imaginable? Too utopian perhaps, but if someone from 100 years ago is to look at technologies we have now, a lot of it maybe construed as magic too."
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Nothing new here, just more "if you think it's easy to steal now, just you wait!" kinds of stuff that you and others on this thread have articulated as well as can be done.

As long as people exchange things of value, money will be needed. It beats me needing to find someone who has some grain that needs my pigs so I can trade the grain to the guy who has the milk I need. Capitalism is more about people being free than it is a system. We set up rules around the margins because lots of people are no damned good, and it isn't just the oligarchs. Some of them are even programmers.

Technology has given the rogues a leg up, it's true. Doesn't make it right, and I'm getting pretty tired of folks telling me what I can and cannot do to make a living.
 
#474
blue4 said:
After The Beatles has anyone really brought anything mind blowing to the table in rock? Other than "hey I played that with distortion!" or "Most people would play that riff with a guitar, but we did it with something else!" The fact is other than a few key musicians in history no one brings much really new to the table.
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What? Is this serious? Really? Where do I even begin?
 
#477
blue4 said:
Music, photography, writing, etc have not been destroyed. There is plenty of good stuff around if one would take about 2 minutes and look for it. .
And let's be honest. After The Beatles has anyone really brought anything mind blowing to the table in rock? Other than "hey I played that with distortion!" or "Most people would play that riff with a guitar, but we did it with something else!" The fact is other than a few key musicians in history no one brings much really new to the table.
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How do you feel the Beatles were innovative (and then we can get back on topic :D)?
 

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