Double Bass Finding Your Voice

[Jim Dedrick]

I was reading a few threads this evening on transcribing and ear training and was inspired to start a new thread on finding your voice. By no means am I judging those eager to learn new material, rather my intention is to get some feedback and perhaps engage in some open minded thought process on how we learn.

A few years ago I got wrapped up in some of the ideas Henry Threadgill presented. Interesting video here for any that are curious:

Does transcribing solos make you start playing like the person on the solo and if so is that what you wanted? Perhaps yes and for some perhaps not. My 80s college experience (showing my age...) was focused on items like Simandl, Bach, Vivaldi, Dragonetti, big band charts, and everyone was playing out of the Charlie Parker Omni Book. I did spend lots of time improvising out of real books. It was all part of the program. Does this form of education create like sounding musicians so that graduates from a certain program sound like they came from that program? Does studying with the same teacher for a long time potentially lead to you sounding like that teacher and is that a good thing?

I agree that you need to have a method of learning some basic fundamentals, perhaps you need to know a set of rues before you break them. Then there is the concept of learning ones instrument. At what point do we begin to establish a musical identity that belonged to someone else, or to several others? Do you think this is a good thing?

 

[rufus.K]

We all start at such different places and perspectives... and where we want to be, where we end up , those trajectories... all points have room to be valid.
When i try to makes rules for everyone, i guees it boils down to :

Try to keep evolving, keep getting more diverse

Do things youre not supposed to

When in doubt, call it fusion (but try not to call it)

 

[Sean Riddle]

This reminded me that I've been wanting to listen to this interview of Threadgill again!

I know in some other interviews Threadgill himself talked about how as a kid he and his friends would listen to recordings and make like weekly assignments for them to learn each instruments part and then try to sing it all together. From what I know this was also just straight up common practice amongst most jazz musicians in the old days. I think what I've gotten Threadgill's comments about this topic is that imitation is part of learning this music, but getting caught up in intellectualizing it rather than letting it live is counterintuitive to it's nature and stunts your growth as a musician. Absolutely learn from the past cause it most definitely informs what we do, but forward is where we go. Whether you disagree or not, I do think Henry Threadgill stands as someone who lives Coltrane's desire to want to progress and to make oneself a better musician/human.

 

[5aP]

I'm bad in copying, imitating and similar. On the other hand, trying to make my own music but in certain genre, also didn't work well for me.
Then I set down and start to analize my self - my voice are the things I jam while I'm alone, while I'm boring, while I'm improvising. Those thing that are coming out if me while I play without any borders are my voice and sound. So I started to focus on that and evolve.
With time, later on, even when I get to play cover songs, they are not imitations. They are performed by me.

 

[jjqq123]

To answer the tittle of the thread literally... Wouldn´t be a great exercise to transcribe your own voice, as in a scat solo? I do it sometimes. Record and transcribe.

 

[turf3]

I was reading a few threads this evening on transcribing and ear training and was inspired to start a new thread on finding your voice. By no means am I judging those eager to learn new material, rather my intention is to get some feedback and perhaps engage in some open minded thought process on how we learn.
<snip>

Does transcribing solos make you start playing like the person on the solo and if so is that what you wanted? Perhaps yes and for some perhaps not. My 80s college experience (showing my age...) was focused on items like Simandl, Bach, Vivaldi, Dragonetti, big band charts, and everyone was playing out of the Charlie Parker Omni Book. I did spend lots of time improvising out of real books. It was all part of the program. Does this form of education create like sounding musicians so that graduates from a certain program sound like they came from that program? Does studying with the same teacher for a long time potentially lead to you sounding like that teacher and is that a good thing?

I agree that you need to have a method of learning some basic fundamentals, perhaps you need to know a set of rues before you break them. Then there is the concept of learning ones instrument. At what point do we begin to establish a musical identity that belonged to someone else, or to several others? Do you think this is a good thing?

A few comments from my perspective:

1) I do think that learning jazz in an academic environment tends to create "sound-alike" players. My suspicion is that this is inherent in the academic/conservatory approach which is heavily teacher-focused, and also heavily aimed at doing what is "right" in order to get a good grade. As a sax player I can tell you that not only did players who came out of NTSU in the seventies and eighties have a common consistent sound and concept; that sound and concept bled out over the whole geographical region. So even now, after 40 years of saxophone playing, I still have a "North Texas" sound in my playing - even though I never attended the school. I'm not saying they all sound completely alike, by no means, but there is a strong commonality.

To some extent this is natural but I think those who really want to have an individual jazz voice need to be aware that the conservatory environment is excellent for developing a command of the instrument and excellent for getting a deep understanding of what those who went before you did, but it's not excellent for developing your own distinct way of coming at improvised music.

2) Similarly to your comment about studying with a single teacher for a long time: if you look at the history of the great jazz innovators, many of them did some serious classical study of the instrument (gaining a technical mastery of the instrument), but few of them studied jazz for an extended period with a single teacher. In the "golden age", really, jazz learning was a combination of reacting to momentary demands on the bandstand, paying one's dues in more commercial settings, and self-study and practice either alone or with a small group of like-minded musicians. I remember someone being quoted as "if you transcribe my stuff, you're my student, but if you transcribe the stuff I transcribed, you're my peer."

3) In my own case, with saxophone as my first jazz instrument, the whole reason I started playing it in high school was to play African-American improvised music (jazz, rock and roll), and the first thing I did when I got a few scales under my fingers was to start playing along with records and trying to sit in on jam sessions. I've never had any significant formal jazz instruction although I have had significant technical instruction. As a saxophone player I think I have an identity that transcends my limited technical skills, and other musicians have told me this. I'm late to the bass, so my journey on bass is the journey of a 45 year old fully formed musician adding a different instrument after hearing other people play it for an entire lifetime - so that is probably not relevant to most bass players.

4) As to rules in jazz playing and when to break them - at this point there have been multiple points at which jazz playing and bass playing in specific has broken through existing sets of rules and established new parameters for what can and can't be done - so I think at this point in history it's more about the specific genre in which you're playing at a given moment.

If you're playing strict New Orleans style, it'll be pushing the envelope to throw in a chorus of four-beat walking; if you're doing swing, tritone substitutions add that "outside" spice; if you're playing bebop, playing non-walking flurries of notes and polyrhythmic stuff is where the envelope gets stretched; if you're playing free jazz, non tonal elements might be "breaking the rules" - or maybe just playing a chorus of straight roots and fifths on one and three?

 

[Sam Sherry]

 

[turf3]

Well, Branford is a fine musician, but if we're going to get into quotes:

"I try not to be a repeater pencil" - Lester Young
"Don't play that, play something you haven't played before!" - Charles Mingus
"Master your instrument. Master the music. And then forget all that ******** and just play" - Charlie Parker
"I think that every person, whether they play music or don't play music, has a sound - their own sound" - Ornette Coleman

 

[rufus.K]

They found theirs

 

[equill]

I'd say the things you spend your time working on will dictate your vocabulary, and the things you hear will influence your accent, but your voice is what comes through regardless.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

In music, as the saying goes, "Man ist was man isst" - you are what you eat. I think of a person's voice as the sum total of all of the music that has truly touched that person as filtered through both the person and through their technical ability to execute that sound on their instrument. But there's a big difference between "hearing" and "listening", and also a big difference between liking and loving. In my case, the word "resonates" is a big part of the equation. When something truly resonates, I want to add it to my stew. Sometimes this happens subliminally, sometimes it requires more active work.

Imitation is an art form that has gotten a bad rap, in my opinion. People will say "I don't want to imitate, because I want to find my own thing". On the opposite side of that equation, many acknowledge that we stand on the shoulders of the greats who came before us...but only if we can climb that high. If I play a solo and a colleague says "man, that was really a Charlie Haden vibe", I think that's great, because whether true or not, it spoke something to the person that channelled Charlie in their head. I've been called way worse!

But back to imitation, I make it a habit to try and directly "meld" with voices/lines/solos/melodies that resonate with me, and that I find beautiful, and encourage my students to do the same. A list of some of my favorite people to play the bass along with and try to copy every little nuance would include, in no particular order:

Ray Brown
Charlie Haden
McBride
David Gilmour
Drew Gress
Etta James
Kenny Barron
Bonnie Raitt
Hutch Hutchinson
Frank Morgan
Jessye Norman
Brian Bromberg
Chet Baker....

There is so much to be learned by imitating great role models, and they all become part of your own musical primordial ooze. Like musical styles themselves, I would argue that we are the sum of our influences, and that if it moves you, throw it in the stew and see how it seasons the overall mix.

 

[Jim Dedrick]

It’s an interesting topic for me. I completely agree that we become a result of what we have done. I also think that there is lots to learn from those who have already done it and it might be impossible to avoid all those influences even if you wanted to.

As far as diving into the nuances of what some else sounds like, I agree that there is so much to learn from others like why do Red Garland’s solos sing so much and what can I learn from this?

Taking this thought into a band leader role, I never want to tell others to sound like so and so. I want them to come up with, hopefully, what they hear and get inspiration for my playing by what they have presented.

 

[Silevesq]

They found theirs

As funny as this may seem there is strong speculation that this is Louis Cole and Sam Gendel. If you don't know them check out Knower.

 

[rufus.K]

As funny as this may seem there is strong speculation that this is Louis Cole and Sam Gendel. If you don't know them check out Knower.

Its definately Cole. Unsure about the other.

 

[Sean Riddle]

As funny as this may seem there is strong speculation that this is Louis Cole and Sam Gendel. If you don't know them check out Knower.

Can confirm that it is indeed both Louis Cole and Sam Gendel.

 

[damonsmith]

The one Knower clip I could get through seemed like everything bad about copying too much to the point where there is no voice and it is just confused and cold. Sort of cynical post-jazz school drivel that hopes John Zorn might notice. Very skilled, however!

On the other had there are great reasons to copy. If you really like what a musician is doing, you really want to get to the other side of where they got things with the instrument, which means working through what they put before. After 26 years or so, I am getting to the point where I can say and have moved some of what Peter Kowald and Barry Guy did a bit more forward, what I have been able to do, I have done by going at it head on rather than try to avoid.

When it is music you really hear, it won't be an issue to play it. If you are not hearing or feeling it could be worth pushing yourself, it could also just get you the kinds of cold, hard skills the Knower kids have. I never transcribed Dave Holland, I just noticed one day that I had a s#1+load of Dave Holland licks under my fingers - and those licks are useful!!
To this end, I really heard Kowald. As far as Barry Guy, I did love his work, but, I noticed no one was picking it up at all, so made a choice to work with his material because I think it is important.
If you approach it not as copying, but, as working on the same project as the person you are interested in, you will get to a better place.

 

[Don Kasper]

it could also just get you the kinds of cold, hard skills the Knower kids have.

Sort of cynical post-jazz school drivel

Wow.
I beg to differ. For those who may not have heard of Knower - here is a live performance.
See/Hear below. This is anything but "cold". It is very original, inspired, and creative...did you ever consider that you just might not "get it"? Why not just say you don't care for it? (I don't "get" most of your music, but I don't devalue it or deride your "skills", or your commitment to your music. But that's me.)
Not sure what you're referring to when you say (derisively) "hard skills", but I often have difficulty understanding your use of language...as we've tried to discuss in the past.
IMFO, of course, as always.

 

[jheise]

The one Knower clip I could get through seemed like everything bad about copying too much to the point where there is no voice and it is just confused and cold. Sort of cynical post-jazz school drivel that hopes John Zorn might notice. Very skilled, however!

I totally disagree with everything you write here. If I listen to the Knower/Cole/Artadi/Clown Core etc. output I see/hear a lot of things but nothing that makes me sum up my listening experience in a sentence like yours.

 

[jheise]

The one Knower clip I could get through seemed like everything bad about copying too much to the point where there is no voice and it is just confused and cold. Sort of cynical post-jazz school drivel that hopes John Zorn might notice. Very skilled, however!

On the other had there are great reasons to copy. If you really like what a musician is doing, you really want to get to the other side of where they got things with the instrument, which means working through what they put before. After 26 years or so, I am getting to the point where I can say and have moved some of what Peter Kowald and Barry Guy did a bit more forward, what I have been able to do, I have done by going at it head on rather than try to avoid.

When it is music you really hear, it won't be an issue to play it. If you are not hearing or feeling it could be worth pushing yourself, it could also just get you the kinds of cold, hard skills the Knower kids have. I never transcribed Dave Holland, I just noticed one day that I had a s#1+load of Dave Holland licks under my fingers - and those licks are useful!!
To this end, I really heard Kowald. As far as Barry Guy, I did love his work, but, I noticed no one was picking it up at all, so made a choice to work with his material because I think it is important.
If you approach it not as copying, but, as working on the same project as the person you are interested in, you will get to a better place.

Now I know what got me so worked up. This type of comment reminded me of some things that I witnessed in the past:

A lot of Jazz musicians in Hamburg are associated in a club. Promoters/festival organizers often give this club the opportunity to choose the artists to play. So even the free improv guys can get good gigs because they just put themselves on the roster. (No names because Damon might know them) ;-) So you were able to witness the following (I stopped going to those festivals): an international artist (Renaud Garcia Fons) was on stage, the Hamburg guys stood in the back, riffing on everything he does etc. and how it could be better, not realizing that the area around them got cleared because nobody wanted to listen to those comments. Next artist: local Jazz musicians from the club, nothing special, very conventional stuff but good. Well, they obviously got the highest praise. After that, it's this group of Hamburg free improv guys. After 10 minutes they had the room almost cleared. I had to go after the first 30min because up until then they were not able to communicate at all that they had any fun doing what they were doing. And who want's to listen to that stuff if not even the artists seem to be into it.

This thread was about finding your own voice. And if there are people who obviously found it, I'd think it would be ok to be silent even if one does not like the musical result. Because the result was not, what the thread was about.

Sorry for my rant.

 

[damonsmith]

You are probably right here. This clip seems way more like they mean it. The clips I saw I did "get" post Naked City genre switching, which, it is true, I don't care for. Also, the "look how naughty I am, I am playing metal mixed with jazz!" bit always grinds my gears. That sort of thing in free music for me is like real book tunes for you!
Anyway, clearly they are great musicians. The main thing wrong with my post is being too harsh on strong young musicians. You never know what they will do later.

Wow.
I beg to differ. For those who may not have heard of Knower - here is a live performance.
See/Hear below. This is anything but "cold". It is very original, inspired, and creative...did you ever consider that you just might not "get it"? Why not just say you don't care for it? (I don't "get" most of your music, but I don't devalue it or deride your "skills", or your commitment to your music. But that's me.)
Not sure what you're referring to when you say (derisively) "hard skills", but I often have difficulty understanding your use of language...as we've tried to discuss in the past.
IMFO, of course, as always.