Finger picking, alternating vs sweeping

[flyontoast]

I play guitar and want to make a proper leap to bass, but something is hurting my brain.

Lets say I'm playing 2 notes on the D string followed by 2 notes on the G string. I pluck index then middle on the D, so now my middle finger is resting on the G string. My brain wants to continue the stroke with my middle finger and "sweep" the first note on the G string.
On guitar, I'd find myself sweeping between strings for some songs but religiously alternate picking for others. My understanding was there is no consensus among guitarists and it only really starts to matter when it comes to serious high bpm shredding (which I am not currently interested in on guitar or bass).

Pretty amateur question, but I'm assuming it's not possible to finger pick and achieve a downward sweep (G to D), so I feel like I should break my sweep habit and get into a pretty religious alternate picking style?
My ultimate goal is to be able to slap some funk, so any advice on not bringing over my bad habits from guitar to bass would be much appreciated!

 

[FatStringer52]

Lets say I'm playing 2 notes on the D string followed by 2 notes on the G string. I pluck index then middle on the D, so now my middle finger is resting on the G string.

If you're plucking index - middle on the D string, I don't see how your middle finger is resting on the G without a lot of unnecessary movement. Normally when you have plucked index - middle on the D string, your middle finger in drawn in towards your palm and you index finger is cocked and ready to procede to the next note (unless, of course, the next note is on the A string, then raking would be appropriate). For speed purposes, it is best IMHO to use strict alternate picking when ascending and incorporate raking when descending. There are those that will continue to use alternate picking on descending lines and are able to maintain flawless speed. On desceding lines you need to find out which works best for you.

 

[James Collins]

I always alternate. That is not how I started, but when I started taking classical guitar lessons, I was instructed to do so. Now that is how I play with a few exceptions on guitar and bass.

The benefit to raking is economy of motion with less wasted motion with certain plucking techniques.

The benefit to alternate picking is consistent plucking dynamics for certain plucking techniques (the starting rest position on the next string is not the correct starting position for how I pluck).

I think my plucking technique ends up making one better for me. Using alternate plucking, I do not pull the string side to side along the plane of the fretboard. Instead, most of my motion is pushing the string downward toward the fretboard and the string vibrates up and down.

Also, as stated by @FatStringer52, raking is easier from G to D to A to E than in the opposite direction.

 

[StefKhos]

@James Collins (and anyone else who can help)

I always alternate. That is not how I started, but when I started taking classical guitar lessons, I was instructed to do so. Now that is how I play with a few exceptions on guitar and bass.

I would love to know how you managed to do this James. I am currently trying to break my long formed habit of not always alternating plucking and am finding it super tough. I have tried slowing a major scale right down and saying "I" "M" out loud as I play, any other tips/exercises would be greatly appreciated.

Apologies if this should be in a new thread by the way. Thanks!

 

[Malcolm35]

I feel we should do what is best for us. As long as we can get the needed note before the music moves on, we have done what is asked of us.

I started using the one finger per fret major scale pattern and several years later my fingers started deciding what finger would sound the next note. I let them decide this and nothing bad has come from that decision.

My point -- IMO basic bass lends itself to alternate picking. If you are used to I-M-P-A or sweeping, use it when it is appropriate. We do not need to be one trick ponies. However I do recommend you start with alternate. Your sweeping won't go away, it will be there waiting on you.

 

[James Collins]

@James Collins (and anyone else who can help)



I would love to know how you managed to do this James. I am currently trying to break my long formed habit of not always alternating plucking and am finding it super tough. I have tried slowing a major scale right down and saying "I" "M" out loud as I play, any other tips/exercises would be greatly appreciated.

Apologies if this should be in a new thread by the way. Thanks!

So I did it practicing scales on classical guitar. It just translates automatically to bass.

The specific exercise is the Segovia scales. It is practicing all major and minor scales up and down the neck. I had to say it out loud at first. Also, I practiced alternating the scales in the following patterns:

I, m...
M, I...
M, a...
A, m...
I, a...
A, I...
I, m, a, m..
Where I is index, m is middle, and a Is ring.

 

[StefKhos]

I started using the one finger per fret major scale pattern and several years later my fingers started deciding what finger would sound the next note. I let them decide this and nothing bad has come from that decision.

This is exactly the same route that I took. I started out teaching myself to use alternate picking, but after I got to a point where I was playing in bands, I just let my fingers do what they wanted (ended up a mix of raking both ascending and descending but only some of the time and only with my index finger, and also there are certain patterns where I will double up on my index finger even when playing 2 notes on the same string). For years I was playing almost exclusively reggae, and I never had any problem with not being able to play a certain bass line etc. It worked because reggae is a slowish music with basslines that have plenty of space - lovely!

However, now, I am more into funk music, and when i'm faced with a line laden with 16th notes, I do not have the speed, and find my fingers tripping over themselves. This is why I am trying to break the raking/sweeping habit. So overall I think it is quite a genre based decision. Motown, soul, rnb, hip hop, reggae and lots of other genres can be played to great success with either technique - even using "one finger only" or "thumb only" has worked for some bassists (although I don't think anyone would recommend learning that way). However if funk or classical styles are genres you are possibly going to play I would try and stick with alternate.

As your overall goal is to slap some funk, I would persevere with teaching yourself to alternate pick. One question for you though - do you play guitar mostly fingerstyle or with a pick? From your wording it sounds like you mostly use a pick. If that's the case, hopefully the transition will be easier as it's quite a different physical motion.

One last thing to make my very long post even longer - if you are an accomplished guitar player and you have got used to playing intricate fingerstyle/picado pieces at a fast tempo I would say you don't need to worry about changing your (very ingrained) ways. You probably already have developed the skills to play the funky basslines that you so desire - even better if you have been thumb slapping the guitar! Good luck!

 

[StefKhos]

So I did it practicing scales on classical guitar. It just translates automatically to bass.

The specific exercise is the Segovia scales. It is practicing all major and minor scales up and down the neck. I had to say it out loud at first. Also, I practiced alternating the scales in the following patterns:

I, m...
M, I...
M, a...
A, m...
I, a...
A, I...
I, m, a, m..
Where I is index, m is middle, and a Is ring.

Wow, that sounds perfect. Very challenging, but I will persevere! Thank you.

 

[James Collins]

Wow, that sounds perfect. Very challenging, but I will persevere! Thank you.

Maybe a month of practicing 30 mins a day should get you there. I think going through one pattern takes like 5-8 mins for all the scales once you've practiced enough. I tend to break up and practice one pattern on a given day when doing scales now.

 

[factory presets]

The important thing about alternate plucking is to play whatever you are practicing the same way every time. Otherwise you will not make any progress with muscle memory.

Raking works fine for speed monsters like Thundercat and Billy Sheehan. But they have probably practiced it in a structured way until whatever they play falls naturally into the same pattern they have drilled relentlessly every time. It's not something I want to work on myself. But I expect that because there are many more possible combinations of raking and alternating, there must be a lot more combinations need practicing. Im sure there must be practice routines for the technique available for free on YouTube.

 

[Les Fret]

Been discussed here: Is raking bad?

 

[Wasnex]

I play guitar and want to make a proper leap to bass, but something is hurting my brain.

Lets say I'm playing 2 notes on the D string followed by 2 notes on the G string. I pluck index then middle on the D, so now my middle finger is resting on the G string. My brain wants to continue the stroke with my middle finger and "sweep" the first note on the G string.
On guitar, I'd find myself sweeping between strings for some songs but religiously alternate picking for others. My understanding was there is no consensus among guitarists and it only really starts to matter when it comes to serious high bpm shredding (which I am not currently interested in on guitar or bass).

Pretty amateur question, but I'm assuming it's not possible to finger pick and achieve a downward sweep (G to D), so I feel like I should break my sweep habit and get into a pretty religious alternate picking style?
My ultimate goal is to be able to slap some funk, so any advice on not bringing over my bad habits from guitar to bass would be much appreciated!

If you're playing finger style you can rake in one way but not the other. I.E. when playing a linear line from the G string down to the D string, there is an opportunity to rake. It does not work playing up from the D string to the G string. I tend to alternate, but there are times when a rake in the right part of a complicated line can make a difference. To be honest I don't really think about it so I may rake more than I think .

I believe this video will cover what you want to know:

 

[eKay]

I think raking is awesome. As I was teaching myself originally, I ended up using economy picking without knowing it was even a thing. Years later when I had a teacher I learned to use strict alternate picking and basically lost the other technique, only to rediscover it some more years later and wish I could do it!

One other thought, nobody says you can’t play with a pick if that’s what you’re used to. I mean, the picking technique is not exactly the same as on guitar. But you can play funk with a pick too! Just check out Bobby Vega.

 

[emonk]

I would say follow strict alternate finger picking, where one finger is the down beat and the other is the up beat, even when moving strings.

The reason is the same for guitar picking, it will mess up your rhythm making the entire passage harder instead of just one note change.

e.g. say you were playing all 16th notes on two strings:

DDAD-DDAA-DDAD-ADAA

Just try playing that with raking, economy, or strict alternate picking. Strict alternate is going to feel much more natural sooner, and ensures you always hit the down beat with the same finger with the same pattern, making it possible to be way more consistent. When you get strict alternate down you can immediately and perfectly play back any rhythm you hear, when you just go with what is natural in the present, you will occasionally hit tricky passages that will trip you up mechanically

I do make an exception for triplets and odd time signatures where it can make it easier to begin a passage on the same finger, but these are both rhythm exceptions

 

[Wasnex]

I would say follow strict alternate finger picking, where one finger is the down beat and the other is the up beat, even when moving strings.

The reason is the same for guitar picking, it will mess up your rhythm making the entire passage harder instead of just one note change.

e.g. say you were playing all 16th notes on two strings:

DDAD-DDAA-DDAD-ADAA

Just try playing that with raking, economy, or strict alternate picking. Strict alternate is going to feel much more natural sooner, and ensures you always hit the down beat with the same finger with the same pattern, making it possible to be way more consistent. When you get strict alternate down you can immediately and perfectly play back any rhythm you hear, when you just go with what is natural in the present, you will occasionally hit tricky passages that will trip you up mechanically

I do make an exception for triplets and odd time signatures where it can make it easier to begin a passage on the same finger, but these are both rhythm exceptions

I don't necessarily agree with this. There are definitely patterns where using a rake can allow you to play faster and cleaner, but you need to practice the technique in order to realize the advantage. So even if you primarily alternate, which I do, there is benefit to practicing rake drills so you have the necessary skills when they are needed.

 

[pcake]

i usually alternate or i play with the front then back of my fingernail (i play with my nails).

but do what works best for you, which may not be what works for other players.

 

[luciens]

I rake exclusively, and I don't have a conscious memory of ever learning it or having it taught to me. It just came naturally and that's how I play all lines that involve moving down to the immediately adjacent string.

I've also never seen or heard anything yet that convinces me raking is a poorer technique than strict alternating or that raking players are more stunted or whatever than strict-alternators. So, in my view, just pick your poison. Whichever one works the best for you.

The only stylistic issue with a raking technique is that you very quickly become able to play descending lines much faster than ascending lines (where you have no choice and you must alternate as ScottBass says in the video above). So this may affect your style, causing you to prefer descending patterns lopsidedly. And you may neglect (as I did), practice with learning ascending lines and getting them to equal cleanliness and speed.

That's the only issue I found in my own playing. I have to concentrate to make sure I'm keeping my ascending lines as clean and the descending ones with extra practice. And to make sure that I'm not avoiding them stylistically because I can't play them as well, but when they would be preferred musically.

L

 

[James Collins]

I don't understand how you can play descending lines faster than ascending lines. I would think the speed you can play on one string is the rate limiting factor in both instances. M

My personal problem with raking technique was the string switch had an uneven timing with raking. If I played an ascending scale, it sounded great. When I played a descending scale, the timing was off. I got a teacher that insisted I alternate. I practiced that way for about a month and the problem I had for years went away.

Now my scale patterns are much cleaner and faster than they were previously with much less effort.

YMMV

 

[Wasnex]

I don't understand how you can play descending lines faster than ascending lines. I would think the speed you can play on one string is the rate limiting factor in both instances. M

My personal problem with raking technique was the string switch had an uneven timing with raking. If I played an ascending scale, it sounded great. When I played a descending scale, the timing was off. I got a teacher that insisted I alternate. I practiced that way for about a month and the problem I had for years went away.

Now my scale patterns are much cleaner and faster than they were previously with much less effort.

YMMV

If you can't master the descending raking pattern, you won't ever understand. If you are content with strict alternating technique, I suggest you let it go. Not everyone benefits.

 

[James Collins]

You might be missing the point. If you are playing an even tempo, the fastest you can play is however fast you can play notes on one string. It shouldn't matter how you are switching strings. If you are playing a chromatic scale descending from the C on the open G string to the openE string, it doesn't matter if raking is faster or more efficient than alternating from G on the G string to F# on the D string. Even if it is faster, you would have to slow it down to match the speed of your playing C, B, A#, A, G. I just didn't understand why the descending pattern would be faster.