Finger picking, alternating vs sweeping

[Wasnex]

The actual tempo of a piece can only be as fast as the tempo at which all parts can be played, not just descending lines.

I agree, but I think you may be missing some things. When you are figuring out fingering, you are looking for the option that allows you to play the line and phrasing as well as you can. If the piece just happens to have a descending line that is difficult to play with alternating plucking fingers, and easier with a rake, one should choose to rake.

There is nothing to say that every piece of music will have ascending and descending lines that are of equal difficulty. So there may be times, when it's okay and even necessary to have more facility playing a descending line. IMHO, one should practice and use whatever methods allow one to best play the music.

As I have mentioned previously in this thread, I tend to practice primarily alternating fingers, but there are some times when the music requires other options. I also typically play downbeats with my middle finger, but sometimes I find it is best to start with the index because of some little oddity about the syncopation. It can be very disconcerting to try to invert your plucking if you don't ever practice this way. The same goes for raking.

So it's not just the speed that may be of benefit with the rake. A rake may set you up to be in a better plucking position later in the phrase, which could even give you a benefit in playing an ascending line.

Conceptually its similar to the various ways one might manipulate one's bowing to facilitate a technical line. For example you may play detached notes without changing the direction of the bow or do a lift, so the bow is moving in the right direction at a key moment at some point in the future.

 

[SteveCS]

I agree, but I think you may be missing some things.

I don't think I'm missing anything, just trying to debunk to idea that raking leads to an overall tempo gain in one's general technique - it is clear that is does not. As such, it's purpose and validity, which I'm not disputing, must lie elsewhere. All of the other things you mention (and that I have discussed in the past) are likely candidates.

 

[Les Fret]

Yes, and more to the point I thnk a great deal of control of lost in the rake. Other than at certain synchronised tempi, the speed at the fingertip needed to generate good tone and dynamics is not going to be the same speed needed to get between strings for the next note. To play at other tempi the fingertip speed needs to be changed once to match the tempo then again to generate the correct plucking speed.



LIkewise. Personally I find 'raking' far more applicable at slower tempi, where economy of motion and note density are of no importance. But really then it's just a basic one-finger technique since each note gets it's own deliberate articulation rather than just falling out of the follow-through on the previous note.

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I think there is some confusion between speed and tempo. The speed benefit - that is to say squeezing more notes into the time available, playing 1/16T or even 1/32 instead of 1/16 - is for sure real. But the tempo benefit is, IMHO, illusory. If, as stated, the technique allows more notes per second in descending lines on adjacent strings than any other line and there is no equivalent method for similar gain in the ascending lines, then it cannot really be considered a complete general technique and is really more of a decorative or ornamental concept. In this trivial example, where is the benefit of being able to play beats 1 and 3 but not beats 2 and 4 (some potential rake opportunities are shown with slurs):
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Beat 2 is interesting as it presents a raking opportunity, but it requires alternating at tempo on a single string to set it up, so 'alternating notes on a string' becomes the limiting factor, as identified by @James Collins.

The actual tempo of a piece can only be as fast as the tempo at which all parts can be played, not just descending lines. If the music is written to only include descending patterns in order to achieve some arbitrary tempo goal then it has, IMHO, become subservient to the technical trickery, which carries with it a certain taint. YMMV

While I agree with many things you say maybe it is a bit over analytical. It just comes down to this: 'how can you execute a certain passage the best?' (both sound and speed wise). For one person that might be alternating for the other it might be raking. All fine. Only the end result counts. For me personally I can play your example much easier with raking than with strictly alternate. I can do both but with alternating I have to think more if I always use the correct finger.

Also it is not as black and white as some say here. You might play a certain passage better with alternating but another passage might be better with raking or even impossible with alternating. I play a lot of things that are impossible to play with alternating such as fast ghost rakes on three or four strings.

 

[SteveCS]

... such as fast ghost rakes on three or four strings.

That's what I meant by decoration and ornamentation. Rather like trills, turns and the like - most people can play those at a much higher 'tempo' than would be sustainable for an entire piece.

 

[James Collins]

While I agree with many things you say maybe it is a bit over analytical. It just comes down to this: 'how can you execute a certain passage the best?' (both sound and speed wise). For one person that might be alternating for the other it might be raking. All fine. Only the end result counts. For me personally I can play your example much easier with raking than with strictly alternate. I can do both but with alternating I have to think more if I always use the correct finger.

Also it is not as black and white as some say here. You might play a certain passage better with alternating but another passage might be better with raking or even impossible with alternating. I play a lot of things that are impossible to play with alternating such as fast ghost rakes on three or four strings.

Not to be too pedantic, but is fast ghost raking over 4 strings different from strumming muted strings?

 

[Les Fret]

Not to be too pedantic, but is fast ghost raking over 4 strings different from strumming muted strings?

Yes it is!

 

[Les Fret]

That's what I meant by decoration and ornamentation. Rather like trills, turns and the like - most people can play those at a much higher 'tempo' than would be sustainable for an entire piece.

I mean it more in a groove way, not as a strict embellishment. Like the ghost notes of the main groove from Come on come over for example. It's done with raking. Although that is less extreme than three or four string rakes. Percy Jones stuff is also a good example, a lot of that stuff is impossible with strict alternating.

 

[SteveCS]

...
It's done with raking.
...

But it need not be, and is in no way dependent on it, IME. Personally I find that style of playing easier with alternating fingers. But as the TB mantra keeps telling us - do whatever feels right and gets the job done.

As for Percy, I think his approach defies analysis within 'normal' boundaries. For me, Percy Jones' inspiration was to develop and explore my own thoughts and have confidence in my own findings to assimilate them into my own general technique rather than to trying to emulate, copy or clone him in any specific way.

 

[Les Fret]

But it need not be, and is in no way dependent on it, IME. Personally I find that style of playing easier with alternating fingers. But as the TB mantra keeps telling us - do whatever feels right and gets the job done.

As for Percy, I think his approach defies analysis within 'normal' boundaries. For me, Percy Jones' inspiration was to develop and explore my own thoughts and have confidence in my own findings to assimilate them into my own general technique rather than to trying to emulate, copy or clone him in any specific way.

I agree. Not trying to clone anything. It's just that players like Jaco, Stanley Clarke and Jeff Berlin all use raking. It makes perfect sense for their playing style. But like I said; it's only the end result that counts, not how you do it.