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Double Bass Finish during Restoration

I own an August Heck double bass made in Chicago in 1885 that I bought from Murray Grodner when I was one of his students at Indiana University back in the early 1970s. Murray Grodner bought this old August Heck double bass from Philip Sklar when they were both in the NBC Symphony Orchestra in the early 1950s.

In the 1960s, Murray Grodner worked with a well-known luthier in Cincinnati to refinish the top (front) of this double bass. This looks like a brown varnish and clear coat was used, covering the original lighter stained wood. Over the brown varnish, the clear coat has been peeling off over the past 50 years. Some of the commercially available rosin removing products I used over the years wore off some of the brown varnish and some of the clear coat.

Murray Grodner was proud of the refinishing done in the 1960s. All these years later, I wish that his luthier had simply touched up the original stain without adding a layer of brown varnish and clear coat. Even so, I thought that this August Heck double bass looked beautiful when I bought it from Murray Grodner, and sounded so rewarding to play.

The ribs of this double bass have chocolate-color streaks along with a variety of lighter shades of stain and varnish. The back of the bass is much lighter (not original looking) with heavy varnish and clear coat. Some of this finishing on the ribs and back may have been done as experiments by Philip Sklar, who built a double bass with sloping shoulders in the 1940s.

What ideas do you all have for updating the finish on my bass during the restoration I have planned for 2027?
 
You should post some close up pictures. Sounds like the "clear coat" was not compatible with what's under it? This can happen with polyurethane. I'm not sure how best to rectify this, but If you're determined to DIY, and you have some experience with vanishes and shellacs, then you might try to lightly sand/scrape, or mild chem strip off the clear coat layer, then I would do a series of French polish shellac sessions.

I would say to, in the process, try not to disturb the original varnish and its ground coat.

If value is important to you, take it to a pro for an evaluation. Expect a high quote for most any kind of finish work.
 
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I have a pair of luthiers in Fountain Inn, South Carolina who will be doing the restoration of my old bass in 2027. They plan to retouch the finish of my double bass. I'm gathering suggestions on TalkBass to discuss with these luthiers regarding the final look of my bass after restoration.
 
'Photos for sure; no way to chat it up about color with nothing to look at.

Can we assume that Brian is the one who will be working on your bass, since he is the only shop in Fountain Inn? There is no need for anonymity; he is part of this community, likely reading this thread, and we all know him.

Just for clarity, are you really asking random amateur wankers on the internet for suggestions on how to take care of your 140 year old bass rather than the well established professional luthier who you brought it to?

Are there other mechanical and or structural issues, or just cosmetic?

If there are multiple different colors and materials applied over the years, then you are likely looking at refinishing the entire instrument to get a uniform color- a very delicate and expensive task. If you try to shortcut that and only do one area, there is a good chance it will fade at a different rate than the other colors and quite possibly look like a more complicated clown barf in a few years. That may be what happened already, hence the multiple colors. The entire neck will probably need to also be done since nobody wants a different colored neck.
 
'Photos for sure; no way to chat it up about color with nothing to look at.

Can we assume that Brian is the one who will be working on your bass, since he is the only shop in Fountain Inn? There is no need for anonymity; he is part of this community, likely reading this thread, and we all know him.

Just for clarity, are you really asking random amateur wankers on the internet for suggestions on how to take care of your 140 year old bass rather than the well established professional luthier who you brought it to?

Are there other mechanical and or structural issues, or just cosmetic?

If there are multiple different colors and materials applied over the years, then you are likely looking at refinishing the entire instrument to get a uniform color- a very delicate and expensive task. If you try to shortcut that and only do one area, there is a good chance it will fade at a different rate than the other colors and quite possibly look like a more complicated clown barf in a few years. That may be what happened already, hence the multiple colors. The entire neck will probably need to also be done since nobody wants a different colored neck.
I mentioned in a different thread that Jacob Bradford (a luthier in Fountain Inn, South Carolina who performs repairs on violins, violas, cellos, and basses) carved a new bridge using a Despiau bridge blank and repositioned the sound post for a bright sound. The results improved the sound quality, playability, nuanced responsiveness when soloing on my 140-year-old August Heck double bass.

While my bass was in their shop, Brian developed a list of recommendations for the restoration of my bass, all of which I like.

My inquiry is cosmetic. How have different professional double bassists with their luthiers addressed this situation (multiple different colors and materials applied over the years) with their old instruments? What appearance would look appealing to most people? What will stand the test of time regarding the appearance of the instrument?
 
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BTW: That's my August Heck double bass in my profile photo to the left.

Personally, I am less concerned about what my bass looks like because I'm a studio musician. In contrast, I'm obsessed by the way the instruments plays and what it sounds like since I'm doing a ton of recording with it.
 
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What appearance would look appealing to most people?
Most folks will still call it a cello; I had a woman aggressively arguing that it was an oboe recently...

I think what would stand the best test of time would be an even finish of a classic varnish formula that could be maintained in the future, like the 1704 Strad formula that is universally known and accepted. Getting the finish on is not difficult; getting all of the old junk off to get an even base will be.

Brian and Jacob are great folks and friends with many of us; I go to their place, they come to mine. I always like that cool building on main street that looks like an old cowboy pub from back in the day.
 
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Jacob's day is spent working on violins and cellos which is a big reason I asked their shop to craft a new bridge for my double bass. I wanted that kind of projection and responsiveness for recording solos. Now, it does.

David Horine was the luthier in Cincinnati who worked with Murray Grodner in the 1960s to improve this August Heck bass for that era. When I bought this bass from Murray Groder (my teacher at Indiana University in the early 1970s) it had orchestra gauge Flexocore strings and a light weight single-piece bridge. Strings were 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch above the end of the finger board. Back in the day, you got projection through brute force.
 
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If the finish is stripped off the whole instrument and then refinished is it possible the sound would change to some degree, maybe for the better? If the bass is going to have restoration work done see how it sounds after the work is done. If practical then have the old finish stripped ( you could then play it "in the white" ) and the new finish put on. Would it be an oil or spirit varnish ? Would there be an additional change in sound ? If not then maybe it's best to leave the old finish. If you just want the bass to look really good and do not mind spending a lot more money then have it refinished. These are some of the things I would thoroughly discuss with the luthiers.
 
If the finish is stripped off the whole instrument and then refinished is it possible the sound would change to some degree, maybe for the better? If the bass is going to have restoration work done see how it sounds after the work is done. If practical then have the old finish stripped ( you could then play it "in the white" ) and the new finish put on. Would it be an oil or spirit varnish ? Would there be an additional change in sound ? If not then maybe it's best to leave the old finish. If you just want the bass to look really good and do not mind spending a lot more money then have it refinished. These are some of the things I would thoroughly discuss with the luthiers.
Stripping the old finish off a vintage pedigree bass could be a very bad solution from the value
of the instrument standpoint. A meticulous touch up would be more appropriate if it will do the job.

Again, without pics, we're in the dark.
 
I had a wonderful German shop bass probably from the 1920's that was the ugliest looking thing
I'd seen as its finish was worn down to the ground in multiple places and the back had gnarly worn
areas with black spider webbing. When I brought it home after buying it my wife said I couldn't take it
out to a gig - I'd be thrown out of there! I wish I had taken pics.

My luthier did a full body touchup to the dark finish much of the bass had. I can't tell you the products
he used but it came out very nicely. It took a long time to dry before I could use it.
 

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I've been looking at other old double bass online to see what might be considered acceptable for the look after retouching.

I found this example of a valuable double bass. The back of the instrument is much lighter than the front and shows 3 nails.

Click on link below to see a dozen photos of that instrument:

Bernard Simon Fendt II, c. 1840 | Bassviolinshop
I played that bass last week over in Greensboro!

It was a F#@%ing huge monster with a magic low mid range that even had me wondering about putting on Belcantos. I never once questioned the varnish or cared what it looked like, but I've been obsessing about the voice every since constantly while working on a new double bass build here in my shop.

As a sidenote, anybody who can should visit the Bass Violin Shop. They have a fantastic inventory right now.
 
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Stripping the old finish off a vintage pedigree bass could be a very bad solution from the value
of the instrument standpoint. A meticulous touch up would be more appropriate if it will do the job.

Again, without pics, we're in the dark.
Yes. I'm coming around to this way of thinking...meticulous touch up by my luthiers at the end of their process of restoring my bass in 2027.
 
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