Finish for cocobolo?

[Mastiff_5]

I am working on a 5 string electric build utilizing cocobolo for the body top, the fretboard and on the headstock cap. Its long, matched cocobolo pieces that have been drying for 14+ years since I bought it from an awesome shop that doesn't exist anymore. I understand the cocobolo will fade over time. I have used and liked oil finishes in the past, on my Warwick thumb for instance, But I am worried the beautifully figured/grained colors will quickly fade to a boring brown. I'd prefer to do a finish like I've seen on high end basses with exotic tops that looks thick and clear, but I wouldn't want that on my fretboard, and I don't want the fretboard and body top (and headstock cap) to fade at different rates. What product(s)/techniques are out there that I should be considering?
Construction woods:
- Cocobolo top, fretboard and
headstock cap.
- 5 piece Neck (thru) bubinga, wenge,
paduak
- Body wings Swamp ash
Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[GMC]

Oiling Cocobolo is a waste of a beautiful material. Why not sand it to a really high grit and then apply some wipe on poly? Let it build and then polish to a high gloss finish.

 

[byacey]

Cocobolo gradually darkens over the years, but it still looks beautiful. It won't turn to a drab brown as you mentioned. Laquer will work, as well as 2 part spraying urethane. Oil varnishes take forever to dry, so don't go that route. I have a bass that I built 35 years ago, and it is still a beautiful deep reddish color.

 

[Samatza]

I have two finished in poly, one went completely dark brown but looks deep red under lights, the other started as more orange and got more red.

I'm told sunlight will cause more rapid fading but a lot of coatings have a UV filtering additive. The clear coat still yellows over time though. I'm talking 2or3 decades.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Im doing a Cocobolo top with wipe on poly right now, its a stupid easy finish that dries really hard and glossy. I dont know what will happen to color long term, but it looks great now. My pieces are more brown/orange, I wouldnt mind it if they got darker over time.

 

[Rôckhewer]

I'd prefer to do a finish like I've seen on high end basses with exotic tops that looks thick and clear,

I'm firmly entrenched in the camp that believes a toxic catalyzed (2K) product is the absolute best thing...for such an effect. And an UV absorber... (hopefully?) is your friend.

I base this on an old school upbringing. And my cabinet shop & shutter making experiences with lacquer vs waterborne finishes (we tried 'em for a bit )...in an industrial setting.
Albeit, that was about 6-8 years ago... & there are several waterborne & poly products discussed & highly touted (here in the LC) ...That I have NOT tried or even considered. (So...grain of salt)
Regardless... when I was 'in the trades'... I came to the personal conclusion that the "Cadillac" of protective wood gloss finishes (without going automotive lacquer)...was... conversion varnish.

I (religiously) use Sher-Wood® Water White Conversion Varnish (gloss).
Ok...It's kinda hard to spray. It took me finishing about 7 basses to actually get good at laying it down w/minimal orange peel... (but at least orange peel sands out).

It's high build with a quick 30 min flash/recoat.
It only takes about 5 coats to achieve a decent 5mill layer. I typically spray 3 coats one day...Then lighly sand & apply 2-3 coats the second day. ... let cure for 3 days... then cut & rub. (Very fast )

From the product description:
•Excellent clarity
•UV absorber added providing good resistance to yellowing
•High Build - 35% volume solids
•Meets test requirements of the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers Association (KCMA) for finishes
•Excellent toughness and mar resistance
•Excellent moisture resistance
•Excellent resistance to household chemicals
•Excellent cold check resistance.
Meets AWI system 5 for Conversion Varnish
•Self sealing - use the same product as a sealer

Here's some Cocobolo under Conversion Varnish.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

You cant argue with the results Rock gets, if you have the gear and the experience, the 2k obviously looks spectacular on his basses. As an amateur Im still searching for a finish thats relatively idiot proof, and wont kill me if I inhale it or absorb it accidentally. Ive tried the WB finishes with mixed results. I got it to work after a lot of trial and error, but it's not a particularly hard or durable finish, maybe tougher than nitro, but nowhere near as hard as poly. The UV cure finishes like Solarez are interesting, though I havent worked up the nerve to try it. The idea of getting a hard cure in minutes with sunlight, or better yet a UV lamp, is appealing, but like all finishes, some learning curve involved. The Higline Guitars guy has some good videos on YT using it, though he seems to have moved on to other finishes. I kept reading abou how oily cocobolo is, and was pretty careful to wipe it all down with acetone right before finish, but it never felt particularly oily workng it. I did find out Im alergic to the dust, which is pretty common, I guess. Wear a mask sanding it! I bought my top pieces from another TB'er who had them for a while, maybe they had dried out. I tried using Zpoxy as a grain filler, which was a huge PITA, and I'll never get that glass smooth finish Rock has mastered. I probably did it wrong, but, getting more cocobolo at a reasonable price to try it again looks iffy at best.

 

[Mastiff_5]

You guys ROCK!! I'm unfamiliar with all these products, but I'm down to research 50x's and apply once!! Additionally, I have a couple of buddies, one of which owns a cabinet shop, the other an auto body shop, both in business for over 15 years… I dunno if this helps, but I assume it does. I'm stoked and appreciate all the above and any more advice/suggestions!!

 

[Rôckhewer]

I have a couple of buddies, one of which owns a cabinet shop, the other an auto body shop, both in business for over 15 years

Those are good buddies to have.
Definitely pick their brains!
I sorta "apprenticed" under a buddy who was a hot rod restoration guy. (In the evenings).
Best finishing/polishing education ever.

 

[GMC]

I'm often envious at the finish options you have available in the USA compared to the UK. Here in the UK, most of the paint suppliers roll out tins of massively overpriced junk. We have a few exceptions, due to the car trade, 2K is plentiful. Finding a good poly is difficult because the brands bury the composition in the description. Most of the Water based options (we don't have access to Varathane) are low tech, blue toned and relatively soft.
We do have Rustin's Plastic Coating. It's a 2 pack resin that is exceptionally hard and durable. It's usually brushed on with a foam pad and builds well if you re-coat every 20 mins. Apply 4-5 coats, then leave over night to cure. It's thick enough to not need a grain sealer. However, I wouldn't want to spray this stuff. It's probably as dangerous as 2K once air borne.

 

[GMC]

Im doing a Cocobolo top with wipe on poly right now, its a stupid easy finish that dries really hard and glossy. I dont know what will happen to color long term, but it looks great now. My pieces are more brown/orange, I wouldnt mind it if they got darker over time.

I'm pretty sure that Poly has a built in UV inhibitor, It also adds a nice yellow hue to Cocobolo that really makes it pop. With Cocobolo's rarity, a bit like how ebony is going, it seems that having some is more important than it's grade. I think when I cut mine, way back, it was orange. So it's possible that your piece just needs to oxidise a bit to make it more red. I have some Purpleheart that behaves the same, it's quite dull when cut. I have to leave it out in the workshop to turn purple. It's not just about the sun, it needs a bit of air too. Unlike Padauk, where all of it's coulr is on the cut and it dulls down quite quickly if it's not covered / lacquered.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Minwax Wipe-On Poly on cocobolo top, mahogany back, and maple/purpleheart neck lams. It really is ridiculously easy to use, I got some foam makeup sponges, which leave no brush marks. Takes a ton of coats though, I think this was after about 15 coats, and you can still see some wood grain telegraphing through, though that might be due to my less than perfect Zpoxy grain fill job. Supposedly you can do 2-3 coats a day, but I was just doing one a day with time constraint, so a SLOW finish. The Minwax has a little ambering effect that I like. This isn't the drop-dead gorgeous cocbolo flitches you'd see on an Alembic, that stuff is just insanely expensive.

 

[Mastiff_5]

Minwax Wipe-On Poly on cocobolo top, mahogany back, and maple/purpleheart neck lams. It really is ridiculously easy to use, I got some foam makeup sponges, which leave no brush marks. Takes a ton of coats though, I think this was after about 15 coats, and you can still see some wood grain telegraphing through, though that might be due to my less than perfect Zpoxy grain fill job. Supposedly you can do 2-3 coats a day, but I was just doing one a day with time constraint, so a SLOW finish. The Minwax has a little ambering effect that I like. This isn't the drop-dead gorgeous cocbolo flitches you'd see on an Alembic, that stuff is just insanely expensive.

MAN THAT'S PRETTY!! Thank you for the pics to go with the expertise!!

 

[Mastiff_5]

I'm firmly entrenched in the camp that believes a toxic catalyzed (2K) product is the absolute best thing...for such an effect. And an UV absorber... (hopefully?) is your friend.

I base this on an old school upbringing. And my cabinet shop & shutter making experiences with lacquer vs waterborne finishes (we tried 'em for a bit )...in an industrial setting.
Albeit, that was about 6-8 years ago... & there are several waterborne & poly products discussed & highly touted (here in the LC) ...That I have NOT tried or even considered. (So...grain of salt)
Regardless... when I was 'in the trades'... I came to the personal conclusion that the "Cadillac" of protective wood gloss finishes (without going automotive lacquer)...was... conversion varnish.

I (religiously) use Sher-Wood® Water White Conversion Varnish (gloss).
Ok...It's kinda hard to spray. It took me finishing about 7 basses to actually get good at laying it down w/minimal orange peel... (but at least orange peel sands out).

It's high build with a quick 30 min flash/recoat.
It only takes about 5 coats to achieve a decent 5mill layer. I typically spray 3 coats one day...Then lighly sand & apply 2-3 coats the second day. ... let cure for 3 days... then cut & rub. (Very fast )

From the product description:
•Excellent clarity
•UV absorber added providing good resistance to yellowing
•High Build - 35% volume solids
•Meets test requirements of the Kitchen Cabinet Manufacturers Association (KCMA) for finishes
•Excellent toughness and mar resistance
•Excellent moisture resistance
•Excellent resistance to household chemicals
•Excellent cold check resistance.
Meets AWI system 5 for Conversion Varnish
•Self sealing - use the same product as a sealer

Here's some Cocobolo under Conversion Varnish.
View attachment 4768205

That's the look… like it's wet!!! Beautiful man… really nice

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Yeah, if you want that real "liquid glass" look, Rock's process probably the way to go. I'm sure that took some sweat equity to learn how to do though, he WORKED his way to that level of spooky skills. I don't think I'm alone in finding the finish work the hardest part of my builds, and the most error prone.

 

[Rôckhewer]

if you want that real "liquid glass" look, Rock's process probably the way to go

Yeah... the process. But maybe not necessarily that particular material. I don't know that the struggle & learning curve for Conversion Varnish is really worth my regard for the stuff.
There are plenty of other 2K lacquer / polyurethane systems out there...that may be easier to spray.

A couple years ago I was thinking seriously about switching to House of Kolor, Kosmic Urethane Show Klear. (Auto paint).
But then I got back one of my early builds... with that CV finish still pristine. Maybe the owner just took great care of it? Maybe CV is a badass finish. Maybe a poly / urethane... etc. would survive just as well?... IDK.
But I was like... damn.
So I bought another gallon of CV. Which is only $120 compared to the HOK Kosmic @ over $300 a gallon. ($75 for a quart.) But that stuff is like... the "Cadillac" of auto finish.
You can get decent 2K lacquer for wood cheaper than that.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I thought about the 2k Rattlecan laquer, but again, hideously toxic stuff. That YouTube guy Brad Angove has a tutorial on using it, but he has pro gear level respirators, spray booth, etc. My mind keeps drifting back to the UV cure Solarez as a supposedly almost bulletproof finish, mixed reviews on TB, but a guy named @Mephisto on TB did some with it. I'm not spelling his avatar right, I'll try to flag him, he may weigh in. Don't know if there would be any adhesion problems with oily woods like Cocobolo.

 

[Beej]

I thought about the 2k Rattlecan laquer, but again, hideously toxic stuff. That YouTube guy Brad Angove has a tutorial on using it, but he has pro gear level respirators, spray booth, etc. My mind keeps drifting back to the UV cure Solarez as a supposedly almost bulletproof finish, mixed reviews on TB, but a guy named @Mephisto on TB did some with it. I'm not spelling his avatar right, I'll try to flag him, he may weigh in. Don't know if there would be any adhesion problems with oily woods like Cocobolo.

@/\/\3phist0 Darn kids and their fancy spellings.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

Hey @/\/\3phist0
While Im yammering on about Solarez, would you mind posting a photo of your Walnut Jazz build? Any reason to think it wouldnt adhere to cocobolo?

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Hey @/\/\3phist0
While Im yammering on about Solarez, would you mind posting a photo of your Walnut Jazz build? Any reason to think it wouldnt adhere to cocobolo?

Should work beautifully. With oily wood, I would clean the surface thoroughly with a wetting of Acetone, allow to dry for a couple hours, and apply Solarez, starting with a flood coat, and leave it in the dark for a half hour or thereabouts, and let it cook in the direct midday light for @15 minutes to allow the UV to penetrate deep into the wood fibers.
Remember sunlight and UV need to reach every area that the Solarez reaches, or it WILL stay fluid.
Subsequent coats go more quickly. Applied with a foam brush, or makeup pads. All coats (2 or 3 it's all solids no sanding !) only expose it to uv for 1-2 minutes to get it tacky, apply next coat, let it self level as long as you like (an hour?)
Partially cure, hit it again (no sanding) then hit it with a long (15 ish minute cure) this way there will be no witness lines IF you have to sand... if you let it self level and it's debris free it will need none. It shines like it's polished when cured. I'm going to spray it next time
See the linked threads for more detail.

Then the first effort:
Solarez test build. Okoume Pbass

And the next :
Gold Glitter Precision (8lb build) Solarez I Can't Believe It's not Lacquer

Also, did this clock, ancient Redwood with Solarez.