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Double Bass Finish question for our esteemed luthiers

Thanks Bob I think I will add even more oil pigment next time. I don't know if the inks are even soluble in oil and I don't much know how to mix color with them. When I got up to about 10% by volume of pigment to Tru-Oil I figured I better stop there before it affected the composition of the varnish.

I don't want to drag this thread off in the direction of regraduating too much so I shouldn't have brought it up! Sorry! But to reply to Bob, I'm considering it only as it was Don Robertson who recommended it, approximating the cost at around $2000 and bringing it up as an option since the bass is a good size for me. The basses I've been seeing that I'd consider buying up to are at least $9000. And 3 different luthiers told me the top and bass bar are really thick on this bass. I don't expect to turn it into a $9000 instrument, but I'm looking for feedback on the positive results of re-graduating to decide if it's a good idea.
 
Dear wonderful bass friends,

I got another bass that's a good candidate for refinishing. It is a modern carved Korean in excellent condition, hardly a scratch on it, but the original finish was airbrushed on in a "sunburst" effect like a Kay and the "satin" luster which just enhances the cheeziness of the look. This bass plays really well, with a nice even tone, good projection. The same model sold for up to $7000 from what I'm told, but I got this one for about $2k probably just because of the looks. The grain pattern is OK, it's healthy and sound, has been played-in and no neck joint or bass bar problems - everything good but the silly-looking sunburst. In a couple of places you can see the spray pattern in the top coat - ugh. Just from the luster and the depth, I'm thinking the varnish composition is possibly lacquer - anyone heard of this on double basses? I shoot lacquer daily and have also shot a lot of poly (not on instruments) and this looks like lacquer, but can it be a sprayed shellac? Just wondering.

So, I'm considering taking it on a trip to TruOil Spa. I feel confident that even with similar results to the last bass, it would be an improvement, but I'd really like a dark red-brown color, and if I can't get every speck of dark varnish out of the scroll for example, I'd like the new finish to be dark enough to hide.

This time I will also track down a loaner bass to practice on so I don't get too impatient and string up the bass before it's done!

Anyone come across any more info on getting oil varnishes darker? Or any specifics on a ground you'd recommend under oil varnish? Is it OK to put on the first coats VERY heavily pigmented - 50% or more color - would it screw up anything? Should I let it dry for a week like an oil painting, then put on top coats that are clear or nearly clear?

Thanks in advance,

bassbaterie (formerly blue flame which was just a stoopid name)
 
To carry more color, you'll need a varnish with more body and workability than Tru-Oil. Try something like McCloskey Heirloom, thin it as needed and use a really good brush. Also think about adding color with a wiping glaze between coats. Still, expect 6-8 coats to get to a good shade. The Tru-Oil works well as a top coat; if you get it on the bass perfectly you'll need almost no rubout.
 
bassbaterie said:
Thanks Arnold!

Found the McCloskey Heirloom right away on the 'net. Is there a wiping glaze you'd recommend?
I don't know of any that are great. You can make your own from Liquin (art store), oil color, a little linseed, and turp. Or you can simply thin oil colors, but that will take a LONG time to dry. Only use turp from a glass bottle.
 
Hey one more thing. Was talking this over with one of my buds who warned me against the oil-varnish-that-never-dries trip and he says that happens when the varnish is too heavy in linseed oil. Know anything about that? I'm prepared for the 5-week cure time, when the varnish continues to shrink, but just want to make sure you've had success with the McCloskey getting all the way dry??? I have had that problem on other woodworking projects using a product like Watco (not a varnish, I know) which just can't be sanded and looks like the dog's breakfast no matter how long you let it sit before you coat it with something.

I think I really like your suggestion of using the TruOil as a topcoat as, since you mentioned it, it did seem to go on and lie really nice and smooth.
 
bassbaterie said:
Hey one more thing. Was talking this over with one of my buds who warned me against the oil-varnish-that-never-dries trip and he says that happens when the varnish is too heavy in linseed oil. Know anything about that? I'm prepared for the 5-week cure time, when the varnish continues to shrink, but just want to make sure you've had success with the McCloskey getting all the way dry???
It'll dry fine.
 
bassbaterie said:
After reading this and other posts, and doing quite a bit of additional reading, I decided to refinish my 1977 Mathias Thoma which was extremely scratched up and had graffiti scratched into it. Since I own a wood shop and the bass was very cheap and beat up I figure I had nothing to lose. I did use a random-orbit sander (very carefully) with 150-grit discs on the large areas and hand-sanded and used a set of cabinet scrapers on the details. Then hand-sanded it all to 220, then 400 grit smoothness. It took about 8 or 10 hours of sanding to completely strip the bass. The old spirit varnish was very powdery and came off easily, barely loading the sandpaper. I put a lot of time into cleaning up the joints and details with the scrapers.

On the advice of a luthier friend I used egg yolk for a ground - adding (on my own judgement) some denatured alcohol and shellac. Well the yolks curdled and left quite a bit of residue as well as raising the grain. I'd ask more questions before I do that again! Sanded all the mess off to smooth again.

Then applied 5 coats (so far) of Tru Oil tinted with artists' oil colors. It dries beautifully in just an hour or two to a medium-high gloss. After the second coat my luck ran out and it was almost impossible to apply without streaking as the Tru-oil really does not flow out at all. Maybe it needs to be thinned, but the coats are so thin already! It's hard to build the color - after the 5 coats it's still an unattractive peachy tan. Using very short strokes and a fine-weave cloth to apply the varnish minimizes the streaking. I went and looked at a bunch of expensive basses the following week and they were a lot more streaked than mine, so maybe streaks in the varnish just really aren't considered a defect?

On the other hand some new basses with spirit varnish look like they have been dipped in it, with no shading or color variation at all. I would really like to know more about applying the varnish to get it darker.

I had to go play the bass, so I let it cure for a couple days then strung it up. I was quite pleasantly surprised at the improvement in the tone!!! It is much louder and clearer with the Tru-Oil finish.

I figure I will add some more coats to darken it. The figures in the grain look like they are swimming in a 3D clear amber pool. The varnish has a lot of depth (in the good spots).

I had some trouble with dust settling on the bass even with the quick dry time of Tru-Oil. I sanded to 400 between coats and it took off the specks (just the way I handled it with my limited experience). Also some dried, tiny flecks of varnish fell back into it from the edge of the container and I had to pick a lot of those out of the finish.

I would not recommend using Watco on a bass. I have used it a lot on my woodworking stuff and although it's better than many oil stains, it's still a stain not a varnish. It's gummy and it highlights the tiniest scratches. There is a long dry time and it requires very judicious sanding to smooth the grain without loading the sandpaper or taking off too much stain. I'm not crazy about the color choices either (I have used it only on birch though). Just my $.02.

Before and after pics of the bass attached!


Small world ... ibought that bass form you... Ray, you recognize the liddlefiddle?
 
Yep Don, that's the one. I got another "little" one for sale if anyone wants to take a look - an old Tyrolean.

Got a new question about stripping varnish. This bass I'm working on was coated with a very thick coat of clear lacquer like a guitar. Ugh! Under it is SOMETHING dark brown and opaque that does not react to common shop solvents (denatured alcohol, turpentine, lacquer thinner). I made sure not to let any solvents touch seams or large areas - mostly tried it on the scroll. There's no 'ground' under this brown crap, so it's deep into the wood pores. I've been going at it hammer and tongs for nearly 2 weeks as opposed to about 8 hours of sanding/scraping to take off a spirit varnish. The bass is nearly all white but there are several stained areas on the ribs. i can keep going but it's really flippin tiresome as it's taking like an hour to work one dark spot out of the "armpits" of the bass. guess that's what i signed up for, so whatever it takes.

Q: is there a wood bleach that would be safe to use (judiciously of course) on an instrument? or any idea of what they spray onto guitars that the pigmented layer could be? i just have the feeling that i could scrub the dark spots with a toothbrush and the right solvent and get SOME of the crap out.

Can't wait to hear how this baby will sound now that it's lost a few pounds of useless lacquer!
 
bassbaterie said:
Q: is there a wood bleach that would be safe to use (judiciously of course) on an instrument? or any idea of what they spray onto guitars that the pigmented layer could be? i just have the feeling that i could scrub the dark spots with a toothbrush and the right solvent and get SOME of the crap out.

Try acetone, but don't get your hopes up. You might be better off trying to shade all the wood to approximately the color you're left with after you have stripped it. Then you can seal it and build up some color coats. Eventually you will hardly notice any uneven color underneath the varnish. Good luck!
 
bassbaterie said:
Yep Don, that's the one. I got another "little" one for sale if anyone wants to take a look - an old Tyrolean.

Got a new question about stripping varnish. This bass I'm working on was coated with a very thick coat of clear lacquer like a guitar. Ugh! Under it is SOMETHING dark brown and opaque that does not react to common shop solvents (denatured alcohol, turpentine, lacquer thinner). I made sure not to let any solvents touch seams or large areas - mostly tried it on the scroll. There's no 'ground' under this brown crap, so it's deep into the wood pores. I've been going at it hammer and tongs for nearly 2 weeks as opposed to about 8 hours of sanding/scraping to take off a spirit varnish. The bass is nearly all white but there are several stained areas on the ribs. i can keep going but it's really flippin tiresome as it's taking like an hour to work one dark spot out of the "armpits" of the bass. guess that's what i signed up for, so whatever it takes.

Q: is there a wood bleach that would be safe to use (judiciously of course) on an instrument? or any idea of what they spray onto guitars that the pigmented layer could be? i just have the feeling that i could scrub the dark spots with a toothbrush and the right solvent and get SOME of the crap out.

Can't wait to hear how this baby will sound now that it's lost a few pounds of useless lacquer!
Circa 1830's Furniture Stripper? :eyebrow:
 
Thanks guys for the tips on the acetone and 1830's. Maybe they have that at Woodcraft? In the meantime I JUST about got it all off - agh, I am stiff and sore - found the linings are made of plywood and burned thru the veneer in some places - NICE! Dig up enough tonewood to build a whole bass and cheese out with plywood on the smallest parts. Somebody oughta pimpslap that builder.

"Speaking of finishes, how can you tell what type of finish (spirit varnish, oil) was used on a bass? And, is it at all important to use that same type of finish when touching up?"

Yeah, would love to hear about that too!
 
jvillarreal said:
Speaking of finishes, how can you tell what type of finish (spirit varnish, oil) was used on a bass? And, is it at all important to use that same type of finish when touching up?
This came up on a violin making forum, and the basic consensus was you couldn't tell, at least just by looking at it.

As for touch ups, I have a feeling spirit is better because it would be dry within a few hours.
 
You, Arnold are da man. One coat of McCloskey on the newly-stripped Korean bass, after scraping off the messy, stinky, eggy ground coat, and it has a vibrant, butternut color. That stuff flows out beautifully, just as you said. Used Woodburst dye for the color. It has that "dipped in varnish" look, NO blotches, no sags, no streaks...whoa. So nice, I COULD put a clear coat over it and call it Miller Time, although I am going to get it darker just-because. Way, way better results than I expected...stood and stared at it for a half-hour after the first coat!

Waiting for it to dry completely before adding, as the varnish is pretty heavy. So it may take a few days to get all the coats on. Thanks again for the advice Arnold!!
 
right on, i am putting it outside in the afternoons and re-coating once a day when it gets to where it will sand with 400g between coats and what comes off is nice and crispy, not loading the paper. not biting into the existing coat or taking off anything but the tiniest remainder of raised grain and any ambient dust/bugs/other gakk that fell into it when it was wet (i did blow out the inside of the sanded bass with the air compressor before starting to varnish, and vacuumed the room - even the walls. a lot less dust in it this time, but some still comes along).
just trying to make for less work in the buffing-out stage.
 
bassbaterie said:
right on, i am putting it outside in the afternoons and re-coating once a day when it gets to where it will sand with 400g between coats and what comes off is nice and crispy, not loading the paper.

I strongly suggest that 400 paper is too coarse. 800 wet will do exactly what you need and take less finish and fewer edges. Jeff B. converted me to wet-sanding in circles between coats. It works great.
 
Some progress pics: the ground recipe (AKA the dog's breakfast) with the white bass on the right; the bass after 2 coats - i am sold out to the totally swole shape of this bass.

Now am all but done, just one more levelling coat and then it's on to curing and buffing. Took way, way longer than I thought and one coat went all blotchy on me so i ended up sanding way back and putting on numerous thin coats - i think about 10 in all - at least 2 days apart. More pics when I get the parts back on. It's a much darker colour now. I missed looking back at Arnold's post about the 800g so it's lumpier than it ought to be, but i'll EVENTUALLY get it nice and flat.

Then, I'll have to come up with a new pastime when i'm not sanding my playing calluses off and busting first finger open every damn day. Got the human-skin-caulk though and it helps a little bit.