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First Band Drama
- Thread starter Enrique M
- Start date
Some of the worst people you will ever meet are in bands. Simple fact. If you find a good, drama-free band, hang onto it.
I'd say it's worth to give him another shot since he manned up an apologized. We all make mistakes. However, if that was his reaction in the first place it is very possible that it will happen again. Maybe this guy can't handle his emotions appropriately. If it does, and it's a gamebreaker for you, I would say that this evenings practice is over for you and either tell him you are done when all your gear is in the car, or if you don't want the confrontation, a simple text works too. No point in having stress. Move on.
This one is interesting. I cannot understand the 'OMG QUIT' group here - seeming to walk for any infraction that is perceived. Like they have never made an error in judgement or said something they later regretted. For pete's sake, give the BL a second chance.
On the other hand - a guy that thinks it's a good idea to completely alter one of the most iconic bass lines of all time that unarguably IS the song... well, that suggests a fundamental disconnect from the ability to make good music.
I dunno... on the fence. I'd say give a second chance, but certainly be ready to look for a better group in short order.....
On the other hand - a guy that thinks it's a good idea to completely alter one of the most iconic bass lines of all time that unarguably IS the song... well, that suggests a fundamental disconnect from the ability to make good music.
I dunno... on the fence. I'd say give a second chance, but certainly be ready to look for a better group in short order.....
I agree with you. The BD has to have the final say on arrangements, but (unless this is a jobber gig) there needs to be a structured process for allowing input/options from the rest of the band before it's finalized. It's also possible that the BD has a horrid ear for arranging, in which case it's usually better to find other people to play with than to argue with him/her.
Not in my book, but have to say we dont use drummers ...or anyone else with bad time or tempo.
So, its not a factor in my bands but I do agree that you might meet them on sub gigs.
In practical terms it is not my call to sack them off their own gig but its a huge factor in whether I'd take another date with the guy in place, and I wouldn't join a band with that issue either.
And here I like when the drummer speeds up.
At the right time for the song, of course.
I will add that while we do some covers, we are not a cover band, and any "pop" we do is out of the Animals/Yardbirds/Tommy James/Sly with loud guitars section.
If someone hired me and is paying me, I'll play whatever they say the arrangement is. If there isn't a chart or set arrangement, it's understood that I was hired to rely on my experience and judgement to play something appropriate.
If it's a band and not a work for hire situation, then it's up to me regarding what I should play. Hopefully everyone is able to give and take arrangement suggestions thoughtfully and respectfully. If not, time to move on.
The singer here had a moment, then owned his behavior and apologized. Can't ask for more than that.
If it's a band and not a work for hire situation, then it's up to me regarding what I should play. Hopefully everyone is able to give and take arrangement suggestions thoughtfully and respectfully. If not, time to move on.
The singer here had a moment, then owned his behavior and apologized. Can't ask for more than that.
hi Enrique 
What can I say that hasn't been said already?
Better late than never?
Ime most bassplayers don't. We tend to connect melody and rhythm.
But I don't think the clash you had is a biggy! (or drama) Just relax!
Drama is when your singer's wife sleeps with the drummer and dates the keyboarder at the same time.
back on topic:
If you don't have 5 singers on stage, I get why your singer changed the guitar part on "Papa was..."
He simply can't sing and play the original guitar at the same time (the Temptations didn't! they had a guitarist)
He changed it and also wants you to double his guitar line because he needs some anchor points to sing.
That's maybe the reason he clashed with the other bassplayer (I can only speculate)
Syncopating with the drummer is awesome! But it can throw out singers who dance or play another instrument.
You have to rehearse a lot to get that right! (with a singer who plays guitar)
Where do you want to take the band? Where does your singer want to take the band?
I played with a drummer who's name was Mankell. We all called him Monkey because he used to throw sticks
at folks who were late
He was actually a great guy who always laughed when he did that (no drama)
Just give it a try! I guess you will succeed!
He will never call you again!
Ask fellow bassplayer Michael Anthony?
greetings
wise(b)ass
What can I say that hasn't been said already?
Better late than never?
Ime most bassplayers don't. We tend to connect melody and rhythm.
But I don't think the clash you had is a biggy! (or drama) Just relax!
Drama is when your singer's wife sleeps with the drummer and dates the keyboarder at the same time.
back on topic:
If you don't have 5 singers on stage, I get why your singer changed the guitar part on "Papa was..."
He simply can't sing and play the original guitar at the same time (the Temptations didn't! they had a guitarist)
He changed it and also wants you to double his guitar line because he needs some anchor points to sing.
That's maybe the reason he clashed with the other bassplayer (I can only speculate)
Syncopating with the drummer is awesome! But it can throw out singers who dance or play another instrument.
You have to rehearse a lot to get that right! (with a singer who plays guitar)
Where do you want to take the band? Where does your singer want to take the band?
I played with a drummer who's name was Mankell. We all called him Monkey because he used to throw sticks
at folks who were late
He was actually a great guy who always laughed when he did that (no drama)
Just give it a try! I guess you will succeed!
He will never call you again!
Ask fellow bassplayer Michael Anthony?
greetings
wise(b)ass
WHOA! You (he) CANNOT frack with that bassline!!!
Just for the record I don't think there is any bass line that is SO sacrosanct that it can't be modified, or even completely changed, if a new arrangement of a song is to be done.
Also...in a previous band I wrote a lot of the songs and I couldn't help but write parts for some of the other band members. It's frustrating when you have a vison for a song and someone else in the band refuses to even try it the way you've envisioned it.
Quote: “It's frustrating when you have a vison for a song and someone else in the band refuses to even try it the way you've envisioned it.
A few thoughts I trust might be helpful.
The first is, that the original poster has explained the issue well and his clear well thought out, measured response is, well balanced and eminently appropriate to the specific situation.
The second is, that there’s a great question to ask in a very direct manner when professional performance situations suddenly become somewhat confused and awkward. It is this: “Who/Where is the Producer?”
With precious few exceptions, artists and most especially groups benefit tremendously from having an experienced, authoritative voice who can make an objective decision when disagreements arise on subjective matters.
Although some will conjecture that in a small time, local group situation, such an approach is wholly unnecessary, I can remember working with promotion and standing in our local town hall (900 seats) and seeing a small-time local group set up on the stage with a modest back line and small P.A.
Half way down the hall their manager was checking their overall sound was properly balanced and would sound good to the audience. No mixer at the back, but they sounded fine, with a great balance between all the voices and musicians. The salient point is, a trusted objective opinion outside of ego and personality traits was deferred to by everyone involved.
They made it all look so easy.
The hallmark of mastery!
My third point is that many artists and musicians become intoxicated with their own ideas. Entranced and enamoured with what they see as their creativity.
Yet time and time again, the great session players of so many hit recordings, stun us with their reticence to display their immense talent, giving songs the support, they need, no more, no less.
Usually, inexperienced artists and musicians try to include too much or have several instruments performing the same parts (they are entranced with) simultaneously, rather than understanding the bigger picture of how everything best interacts.
Excellent composers with the many harmonic complexities of their original works are invariably given a chart hit, only after a great musical arranger has stripped away the “excessive, unnecessary art” and given the song the directness and impact to make it a hit.
I remember hearing a three-piece band once all of which were performing quite straightforward parts, but the way each instrument interacted with the others was breathtakingly stunning. Liza Minnelli once mentioned her music arranger could make an eight-piece pit orchestra sound like a twelve-piece, and a twelve-piece like a twenty-piece band.
Often each part is performing something simple, but complimentary to the other parts and it’s the manner in which they all interact that makes a for a truly great musical arrangement.
You don’t achieve that usually, with a strictly limited number of instruments available by getting several of them to play exactly the same thing.
Elton once said that Gus Dudgeon was the best editor of a song.
Most "artists" need "editing".
My fourth point involves sharing a similar situation that affected me personally, so I hope you will forgive any self-reference.
I joined the music business after leaving school and saw myself as a “working musician”. Eventually I’d worked with a group that had a good following and recorded a very successful album that sold worldwide.
The trouble was, much as I loved the people in the group. Some of them, due to ego, difficulties, conflicts and complications in their interpersonal relationships caused the group to perpetually lurch from major crisis to major crisis.
Somehow (I’ll never know how they managed it) they would sort themselves out and regroup themselves just in time for some massive gig on the national scene. When they weren’t performing, I would perform with a several other groups so in most respects viewed these antics from the outside.
I met a Hollywood Composer who encouraged me to learn to conduct as my interests were moving away from playing in groups towards Musical Arranging and Direction and Recording Production. So, I left the group and didn’t look back getting on with a number of various other projects that fitted my “working” outlook.
After a while, and with a few successful projects under my belt, it so happened that the group needed a Musical Director and Orchestrator for a very large project they were engaged with, so turned to me.
I helped them get a new P.A. system, huge for its time with plenty of 18” Altec Bass Bins and 15” JBLs etc. et al. We had done a lot of work visiting Army and Royal Air Force Bases and had a good relationship with the Military Services.
So, they kindly lend us the use of a 1,000-seater theatre on one of their Bases to set up and run the P.A. and test it thoroughly. The mixing engineer had a reel-to-reel tape machine next to his desk. And the group performed on the stage and they played one song that they were particularly well known for.
By this time, I had been directing, conducting and producing so was used to making objective decisions about things.
I was friendly and positive but asked them if they would kindly, just for my interest, perform their best-known song again, but at a slightly faster tempo.
Then was amazed, particularly at the leader of the group’s total resistance to that idea. The speed he performed it at “felt right” and he argued long and hard against complying with my request.
I remained totally respectful and was sweet reason itself about the issue. In the end the singer was taking up and wasting so much of the groups limited and valuable time that to the rest of the group the Band leader was now appearing entirely unreasonable. To move things along they finally agreed to my request.
Sometimes you may have put a record on and its clear that the music is not precisely in tune, or almost in a higher key altogether.
Its not uncommon for producers to very slightly adjust the speed of a track, usually making it a little faster, and giving a little more “pep” to create a hit track.
Listening to the recording of how they normally performed the song in question and then to the same song at the tempo I had indicated I wanted them to play it. The lead singer in particular was immediately impressed with how much better the song came over in comparison.
The rest of the group totally agreed, apart from the band leader who continued to protest that to him the “feel of the song” was wrong at the slightly higher speed. In reality he had just become accustomed to performing it that way, was musically in a rut and had gradually slowed down more and more. Without any external, objective voice to tell him otherwise how would he ever know?
Just this slight adjustment in tempo had a completely transformative effect and made it sound much like hit material. Such a small change, such a major impact.
The salient point is, a trusted voice who can cut through the nonsense and cut through the many and varied lengths of string with which groups are so often inclined to tie themselves up with, is a tremendous asset.
One I would highly commend.
A few thoughts I trust might be helpful.
The first is, that the original poster has explained the issue well and his clear well thought out, measured response is, well balanced and eminently appropriate to the specific situation.
The second is, that there’s a great question to ask in a very direct manner when professional performance situations suddenly become somewhat confused and awkward. It is this: “Who/Where is the Producer?”
With precious few exceptions, artists and most especially groups benefit tremendously from having an experienced, authoritative voice who can make an objective decision when disagreements arise on subjective matters.
Although some will conjecture that in a small time, local group situation, such an approach is wholly unnecessary, I can remember working with promotion and standing in our local town hall (900 seats) and seeing a small-time local group set up on the stage with a modest back line and small P.A.
Half way down the hall their manager was checking their overall sound was properly balanced and would sound good to the audience. No mixer at the back, but they sounded fine, with a great balance between all the voices and musicians. The salient point is, a trusted objective opinion outside of ego and personality traits was deferred to by everyone involved.
They made it all look so easy.
The hallmark of mastery!
My third point is that many artists and musicians become intoxicated with their own ideas. Entranced and enamoured with what they see as their creativity.
Yet time and time again, the great session players of so many hit recordings, stun us with their reticence to display their immense talent, giving songs the support, they need, no more, no less.
Usually, inexperienced artists and musicians try to include too much or have several instruments performing the same parts (they are entranced with) simultaneously, rather than understanding the bigger picture of how everything best interacts.
Excellent composers with the many harmonic complexities of their original works are invariably given a chart hit, only after a great musical arranger has stripped away the “excessive, unnecessary art” and given the song the directness and impact to make it a hit.
I remember hearing a three-piece band once all of which were performing quite straightforward parts, but the way each instrument interacted with the others was breathtakingly stunning. Liza Minnelli once mentioned her music arranger could make an eight-piece pit orchestra sound like a twelve-piece, and a twelve-piece like a twenty-piece band.
Often each part is performing something simple, but complimentary to the other parts and it’s the manner in which they all interact that makes a for a truly great musical arrangement.
You don’t achieve that usually, with a strictly limited number of instruments available by getting several of them to play exactly the same thing.
Elton once said that Gus Dudgeon was the best editor of a song.
Most "artists" need "editing".
My fourth point involves sharing a similar situation that affected me personally, so I hope you will forgive any self-reference.
I joined the music business after leaving school and saw myself as a “working musician”. Eventually I’d worked with a group that had a good following and recorded a very successful album that sold worldwide.
The trouble was, much as I loved the people in the group. Some of them, due to ego, difficulties, conflicts and complications in their interpersonal relationships caused the group to perpetually lurch from major crisis to major crisis.
Somehow (I’ll never know how they managed it) they would sort themselves out and regroup themselves just in time for some massive gig on the national scene. When they weren’t performing, I would perform with a several other groups so in most respects viewed these antics from the outside.
I met a Hollywood Composer who encouraged me to learn to conduct as my interests were moving away from playing in groups towards Musical Arranging and Direction and Recording Production. So, I left the group and didn’t look back getting on with a number of various other projects that fitted my “working” outlook.
After a while, and with a few successful projects under my belt, it so happened that the group needed a Musical Director and Orchestrator for a very large project they were engaged with, so turned to me.
I helped them get a new P.A. system, huge for its time with plenty of 18” Altec Bass Bins and 15” JBLs etc. et al. We had done a lot of work visiting Army and Royal Air Force Bases and had a good relationship with the Military Services.
So, they kindly lend us the use of a 1,000-seater theatre on one of their Bases to set up and run the P.A. and test it thoroughly. The mixing engineer had a reel-to-reel tape machine next to his desk. And the group performed on the stage and they played one song that they were particularly well known for.
By this time, I had been directing, conducting and producing so was used to making objective decisions about things.
I was friendly and positive but asked them if they would kindly, just for my interest, perform their best-known song again, but at a slightly faster tempo.
Then was amazed, particularly at the leader of the group’s total resistance to that idea. The speed he performed it at “felt right” and he argued long and hard against complying with my request.
I remained totally respectful and was sweet reason itself about the issue. In the end the singer was taking up and wasting so much of the groups limited and valuable time that to the rest of the group the Band leader was now appearing entirely unreasonable. To move things along they finally agreed to my request.
Sometimes you may have put a record on and its clear that the music is not precisely in tune, or almost in a higher key altogether.
Its not uncommon for producers to very slightly adjust the speed of a track, usually making it a little faster, and giving a little more “pep” to create a hit track.
Listening to the recording of how they normally performed the song in question and then to the same song at the tempo I had indicated I wanted them to play it. The lead singer in particular was immediately impressed with how much better the song came over in comparison.
The rest of the group totally agreed, apart from the band leader who continued to protest that to him the “feel of the song” was wrong at the slightly higher speed. In reality he had just become accustomed to performing it that way, was musically in a rut and had gradually slowed down more and more. Without any external, objective voice to tell him otherwise how would he ever know?
Just this slight adjustment in tempo had a completely transformative effect and made it sound much like hit material. Such a small change, such a major impact.
The salient point is, a trusted voice who can cut through the nonsense and cut through the many and varied lengths of string with which groups are so often inclined to tie themselves up with, is a tremendous asset.
One I would highly commend.
That sounds like a drummer my old roomie and I jammed with months ago. Except without the minimal success. Mr Big Britches had another band and had been playing in this podunk town we live in now (our choice, it's beautiful) for his whole life.
ALWAYS goofing off playing (poorly and loudly) when people were talking. Anytime practice wasn't in the tiny living room of his apartment instead of any of the places that we had all the gear necessary (and room) except his electric drum kit he would whine and complain constantly. Cancel practice because everyone else wasn't gonna come to him. Whining that one of the lugs was loose on his kit from having had to transport it. Did I mention he played poorly? I convinced him we needed a click track and he needed to turn his electronic kit down because we were shaking his apartment windows in the frame and he STILL managed to both get out of tempo and sometimes even flip it to him playing the downbeat on the up. Then the guy started @#$&talking me and my experience to my roomie behind my back which was hysterical to hear about. I'm not a rockstar, I'm not infallible, but I've done my fair share of gigging. I've got my sea legs for amateur circuit shows. He's not the only one who's spent a lot of nights playing hole in the wall bars that have no stage, but he was the only one in that group banned from a few venues in town for being extremely stupid.
Before anyone asks why it went on so long, it didn't. I just didn't have anything better going on and it was something to do. It lasted maybe 3 "practices" before the drummer absolutely lost it on my roomie for having the sheer audacity to tell him that he needed to practice a little on his own and probably be a little less turbulent if this was ever gonna work.
Can I hear the sounds of you all thinking "he's not mentally stable"? Cause if that's your guess then you are correct! About 2 weeks go by and we get news that he's run afoul of the law. Went on a "more than booze" bender for a week, and got super paranoid hiding knives all around his apartment and breaking the windows. Cops got called for a wellness check and he got tazed twice before getting carted off to spend a few weeks involuntarily "committed". OP, I'm glad your band drama has been at least safer than my latest "run in" lol.
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