- Apr 18, 2008
- 16,007
- 1
- 31,701
- Disclosures
- I'm highly opinionated and extremely self-assured
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First Build - "Lucifer"
- Thread starter TerribleTim68
- Start date
Well, strung it up and now the string tension moves the neck, so I got to make a truss rod adjustment. Must have been the right direction. 
Yeah, this feels much better. Now to reshape both ends and then go back and fine tune any flat spots with the sanding.
Yeah, this feels much better. Now to reshape both ends and then go back and fine tune any flat spots with the sanding.
I generally keep it with the thingamajig and the whatyamacallit. Sometimes it ends up mixed in with the doomahonie.
So, I've left the thing stringed up with just a real crude setup on it. I'm almost certain the bridge saddles will need to be recessed into the face of the body to get where I want to be with how I like my basses to be set up. I know, you're all gonna say "blasphemy!" but what I generally do is set them with the string height at the last fret at roughly 2mm. I don't care if it's a 21 fret neck or a 24 fret neck, that's what I do, and it works fine for me. Currently I think this one is at like 4 or 5mm and the saddles are bottomed out. I did have to make a truss rod adjustment after I got it to string tension, which wasn't surprising. Looking down the neck with my super accurate eyeball....it didn't look bad, I may have built a neck that will function properly!
The issue I found after picking it up and "playing it" a few times over the past couple days is this; she got a bad string buzz on the A, everywhere. At first I thought "okay, maybe I cut this nut slot too low" but it still buzzes when fretted. So I need to look that over a LOT closer.
I really need to focus on this one and get it done. I'm over the one year mark now from the time I actually started cutting wood and my brain is starting to go "you said two years, time is ticking...." I want to sort out any neck/string issues before I move on to finalizing the pup locations and routing cavities. I keep waffling on pup locations, do I want them angled to match the last fret...do I want to do something else? I dunno. I've noticed Dingwall is doing an arbitrary angle that doesn't match the last fret or the bridge, it's actually less angle than the last fret. If I had to guess, it's somewhere more like the angle of the 12th fret-ish -
I know, you're all going "this is your bass, do it the way you want" and you'd be right. But, it's part of why I keep waffling. Going with an angle more like the 12th fret would actually help me feel better about these pickups covering the strings better. But then there's the OCD of it all.
I dunno.... waffle waffle waffle.....
I should sort out this string buzz first and get my bridge saddles right. If I need to plunge a router into the face of this thing, I need to get it over with.
Oh, on the good side, it looks so amazing with strings on it! just staring at it just makes me smile, and it doesn't even have electronics yet nor has the wood been "finished".
The issue I found after picking it up and "playing it" a few times over the past couple days is this; she got a bad string buzz on the A, everywhere. At first I thought "okay, maybe I cut this nut slot too low" but it still buzzes when fretted. So I need to look that over a LOT closer.
I really need to focus on this one and get it done. I'm over the one year mark now from the time I actually started cutting wood and my brain is starting to go "you said two years, time is ticking...." I want to sort out any neck/string issues before I move on to finalizing the pup locations and routing cavities. I keep waffling on pup locations, do I want them angled to match the last fret...do I want to do something else? I dunno. I've noticed Dingwall is doing an arbitrary angle that doesn't match the last fret or the bridge, it's actually less angle than the last fret. If I had to guess, it's somewhere more like the angle of the 12th fret-ish -
I know, you're all going "this is your bass, do it the way you want" and you'd be right. But, it's part of why I keep waffling. Going with an angle more like the 12th fret would actually help me feel better about these pickups covering the strings better. But then there's the OCD of it all.
I dunno.... waffle waffle waffle.....
I should sort out this string buzz first and get my bridge saddles right. If I need to plunge a router into the face of this thing, I need to get it over with.
Oh, on the good side, it looks so amazing with strings on it! just staring at it just makes me smile, and it doesn't even have electronics yet nor has the wood been "finished".
In my expert and always correct opinion, I agree that you should get the string/neck/bridge situation ironed out and when it's time to figure out the pups, I would make a jig that holds them over the strings (upside down/mirror of what they would be in the bass) and try them at different positions and angles until you find the best sounding spot for all 5 strings. Once you're happy, mark it.
The Dingwall pickups' magnets are reversed split coil, which means that if you were to draw a diagonal line from the B to the G, it would mostly match the "correct" angle at that location (correct meaning the angle that you'd find if a fret was placed there).
So if you're using standard pickups, I think it would make the most sense to place them according to the angle a fret would have at that location.
You can workout a maximum angle using trigonometry by determining the string width the pickups would "see", to ensure that they would properly cover the strings
Do you know which pickups you'll be using ? Dual coils are more limiting in this regard.
Good point @XLunacy, I had overlooked that one.
Yeah.....maths.........So if you're using standard pickups, I think it would make the most sense to place them according to the angle a fret would have at that location.
You can workout a maximum angle using trigonometry by determining the string width the pickups would "see", to ensure that they would properly cover the strings
Do you know which pickups you'll be using ? Dual coils are more limiting in this regard.
Yup, they are a custom set made by a fellow TB'er. And yeah, dual coils. And yeah, I'm aware of that limitation. The builder said he made them for 18mm spacing, which is also what I built this thing at. So if I slant them too far he suspects it's gonna start creating "issues" reading strings.
I know a lot of people put a lot of faith in that whole "exact pole position" conversation, but I really don't, so I'm not afraid to get a bit "off". but then again, I also don't sell millions of dollars worth of guitar either, so what do I know?
The easiest thing to do then will probably be to wait until you have the pickups, so that you have the exact dimensions, and you can move them around to see how much you can slant them to have the strings mostly above the pole pieces, and still have it look great.
If the builder has not started building them yet, I'd probably think of asking 19mm pickups, since :
18/19 ~= cos(18°), meaning pickups slanted at 18° for 18mm string spacing will see ~19mm.
Even better would be to have pickups made specifically to be slanted :
Having said that, I suppose the 1 or 2mm difference will matter that much in the end, splitting hairs here
But it could matter to some.
Back To Work: Fixing Mistakes -
It's just in my nature to point out where I messed up, and this is one of those spots. During the design phase I failed to account for the neck break angle. I did some research and finally landed on "not every manufacturer uses a break angle, let's just deal with it later, I want to start making sawdust!" Now it's time to pay for my crimes. After getting to a point where I got this build strung up and heard it actually make noise (acoustic noise, but still) it was apparent that the string action was a mile (and a half) high. The only way to account for this was to recess the bridge saddles into the face, which I was never actually against so I'm not upset over it at all. Every headless build has some sort of recess at the bridge, there's plenty of huge chunky "high mass" bridges that are recessed as well. It's not a terrible look, so I'm okay with it. It's just something that when I get to that stage on my next build where it will matter, I will account for it ahead of time. So, the answer? I finally got my little Amana 45475 3/8" flush trim pattern bit with the top bearing in hand and it was time to drag out the trusty DeWalt router! I placed some strips of MDF that had a straight edge around my bridges, did "the trick" and then pulled the bridges off. It's go time -
Progress: The Price Has Been Paid -
Lucifer demands atonement for your crimes, and I think my price has been paid on this one. After taking my router edges off and a really quick, light clean up, I strung it back up and we're left with this -
I do see a small issue at the one corner where I somehow missed after stepping down the final step, but I'm hopeful I can clean that up with chisels or something. I'm still debating squaring it off, but honestly I feel like it looks more elegant rounded like that. I guess I just didn't get the router fully in the corner on my final pass.
But, I'm not unhappy with this. It looks okay.
Moving forward: Pickups, Pickups, Pickups -
I've been agonizing over this for a long time, so on the one hand it is nice to be at a point where I can actually make a decision. We're either gonna stop the agonizing, or start agonizing over a huge mistake.
pickup placement seems to be the single most debated topic on the internet (short of how much tort is enough tort or what's the best bass for metal) and in the end I believe it is highly subjective and ultimately up to the luthier (forgive me, I DO NOT consider myself a luthier). While Leo may have landed on a given placement for a given reason, I don't think his reason is my reason, nor is his positioning carved in stone (or tort). If you want a given sound, you have to deviate from the "status quo", otherwise the sound of the status quo is what you'll always get. Yes, I could build some rig and keep moving things around until I land on what I think is perfect. But I'm gonna be honest here and admit that my ear isn't even that great, so chances are I'd move things around on the rig and not really hear a difference anyways. So, let's just look at other designs and draw inspiration from there, shall we? No fancy rigs, no tone testing, I'm building something inspired after Sheldon's craftsmanship, so let's just look to that for a placement. I put a piece of paper under the strings, laid my pickups on top of the strings and drew an outline, then took the paper back to the workbench and laid out the second pickup so that the two were "centered" and evenly placed -
Yup, that's what I'm going with. I'm done agonizing over it. I'm done overthinking it. It is what it is, they go there. No, they are not angled as much as the frets. I'm compensating for a couple things, the main one being that these pickups are not built to be at an angle like that and I don't want to get too far outside the magnet range and the other being, I think this placement should cause a more "trebly" tone from the treble strings and a more "bassy" tone from the bass strings, giving it a bit of built in "tone range" from the low B to the G. I don't know, I could be wrong, I've never done this before, but they are going there.
Parting Thoughts: Where Do We Go From Here -
My revised pickup placement means that my template I had made previously is no longer valid. But that's okay, that was kind of a test just so I could understand the process. I'll make a new template and we'll get to work on plunging that router into Lucifer's face next.
My string action is where I want it. But my bridge saddles are bottomed out. I'm considering going back in with the router and taking another 1mm off, which would also give me the opportunity to clean up that corner while I'm there. But placing the router guides back in the exact same spot seems problematic. I may also be fine, because I have yet to final cut the nut slots too, so the strings may still be a tiny bit high at that end, which would of course affect the height at the 24th fret too. Not a lot, but it exists. Something else to agonize over!
Anyways, I did things. Any opportunity to post a pic of this thing makes me happy. So I leave you with this -
It's just in my nature to point out where I messed up, and this is one of those spots. During the design phase I failed to account for the neck break angle. I did some research and finally landed on "not every manufacturer uses a break angle, let's just deal with it later, I want to start making sawdust!" Now it's time to pay for my crimes. After getting to a point where I got this build strung up and heard it actually make noise (acoustic noise, but still) it was apparent that the string action was a mile (and a half) high. The only way to account for this was to recess the bridge saddles into the face, which I was never actually against so I'm not upset over it at all. Every headless build has some sort of recess at the bridge, there's plenty of huge chunky "high mass" bridges that are recessed as well. It's not a terrible look, so I'm okay with it. It's just something that when I get to that stage on my next build where it will matter, I will account for it ahead of time. So, the answer? I finally got my little Amana 45475 3/8" flush trim pattern bit with the top bearing in hand and it was time to drag out the trusty DeWalt router! I placed some strips of MDF that had a straight edge around my bridges, did "the trick" and then pulled the bridges off. It's go time -
Progress: The Price Has Been Paid -
Lucifer demands atonement for your crimes, and I think my price has been paid on this one. After taking my router edges off and a really quick, light clean up, I strung it back up and we're left with this -
I do see a small issue at the one corner where I somehow missed after stepping down the final step, but I'm hopeful I can clean that up with chisels or something. I'm still debating squaring it off, but honestly I feel like it looks more elegant rounded like that. I guess I just didn't get the router fully in the corner on my final pass.
But, I'm not unhappy with this. It looks okay.Moving forward: Pickups, Pickups, Pickups -
I've been agonizing over this for a long time, so on the one hand it is nice to be at a point where I can actually make a decision. We're either gonna stop the agonizing, or start agonizing over a huge mistake.
pickup placement seems to be the single most debated topic on the internet (short of how much tort is enough tort or what's the best bass for metal) and in the end I believe it is highly subjective and ultimately up to the luthier (forgive me, I DO NOT consider myself a luthier). While Leo may have landed on a given placement for a given reason, I don't think his reason is my reason, nor is his positioning carved in stone (or tort). If you want a given sound, you have to deviate from the "status quo", otherwise the sound of the status quo is what you'll always get. Yes, I could build some rig and keep moving things around until I land on what I think is perfect. But I'm gonna be honest here and admit that my ear isn't even that great, so chances are I'd move things around on the rig and not really hear a difference anyways. So, let's just look at other designs and draw inspiration from there, shall we? No fancy rigs, no tone testing, I'm building something inspired after Sheldon's craftsmanship, so let's just look to that for a placement. I put a piece of paper under the strings, laid my pickups on top of the strings and drew an outline, then took the paper back to the workbench and laid out the second pickup so that the two were "centered" and evenly placed -
Yup, that's what I'm going with. I'm done agonizing over it. I'm done overthinking it. It is what it is, they go there. No, they are not angled as much as the frets. I'm compensating for a couple things, the main one being that these pickups are not built to be at an angle like that and I don't want to get too far outside the magnet range and the other being, I think this placement should cause a more "trebly" tone from the treble strings and a more "bassy" tone from the bass strings, giving it a bit of built in "tone range" from the low B to the G. I don't know, I could be wrong, I've never done this before, but they are going there.
Parting Thoughts: Where Do We Go From Here -
My revised pickup placement means that my template I had made previously is no longer valid. But that's okay, that was kind of a test just so I could understand the process. I'll make a new template and we'll get to work on plunging that router into Lucifer's face next.
My string action is where I want it. But my bridge saddles are bottomed out. I'm considering going back in with the router and taking another 1mm off, which would also give me the opportunity to clean up that corner while I'm there. But placing the router guides back in the exact same spot seems problematic. I may also be fine, because I have yet to final cut the nut slots too, so the strings may still be a tiny bit high at that end, which would of course affect the height at the 24th fret too. Not a lot, but it exists. Something else to agonize over!
Anyways, I did things. Any opportunity to post a pic of this thing makes me happy. So I leave you with this -
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I think the bridge recess looks pretty clean and intentional, as you said, thats pretty typical on headless bass hardware. Clean up the corner and Bobs your Uncle. It already looks great, if it plays great too, it’s all Gravy!
@TerribleTim68 , since you have the strings on, why not hang the pickups over the top of the strings and move them around to where they sound good to you?
As I said before, I'm not sure my ear would even hear a difference anyways. Plus, I really don't want to try to wire everything up right now just to unwire it and then rewire it again later. I'm not that picky.
TT68, looks fine and finished I doubt anyone but you, and those reading the thread, will ever notice it in person, especially as a 'fault'.
This is coming along beautifully. I can't wait for the lime green / hot pink swirl job, it's gonna look sick!
I can't wait for the lime green / hot pink swirl job, it's gonna look sick!
This is coming along beautifully.
Pretty sure my wife would kill me.
