First project: Folk Bass DIY upright

[Jason Sypher]

Well, you're definitely not wrong, and the perspective is welcome. But perhaps think of it this way: This project is less about learning to play a new instrument and more about learning how to build something that I can then go and play. Quite contrary to the amount of time I spend on Talkbass, playing bass is actually not the only aspiration I have in life .

AND, if this thing accidently gets knocked over and/or explodes in the sun one day, that's a much easier pill to swallow than a beautiful double bass would be.

The highest respect for this perspective!

 

[Jason Sypher]

Boy are you ever in the wrong forum.

And I say that with no disrespect and without a lick of meanness - hang out here a while and see what I mean. I can't count the amount of times I've spent four hours making a jig to accomplish a 5 minute job.

Well, or maybe I really need to see this! I could easily be accused correctly of tunnel vision! Sometimes we all need to zoom out and take in other perspectives! I know I do. I’ve been on TB since 2001 or so and I’ve learned a lot more than gut strings are hard to keep in tune. The last year or so I regularly read the electric threads for the same reason…to get out of my box and see how the other half lives.

 

[Flying B]

Very cool project, would love to hear some sound clips of it working.
How about mounting some wheels up on one side so you can just put the neck over your shoulder and drag it home after a few beers....

 

[NKBassman]

Very cool project, would love to hear some sound clips of it working.
How about mounting some wheels up on one side so you can just put the neck over your shoulder and drag it home after a few beers....

I don’t typically even leave our campsite until after a few beers and a toke or three

Built-in wheels does deserve some thought. They’d have to be pretty robust for the terrain.

 

[NKBassman]

So… if I am ordering a pre-radiused fretless fingerboard from LMI, I’m hoping someone might have an opinion on whether it would be better to go with a tighter radius or flatter? Looks like I can go as tight as 7.5” on some boards, and up to something like 20” if I remember right. Pretty sure they do not offer compound radius.

My first thought was to go tighter just to conceptually get it closer to an actual upright neck, which I think are something like 4” radius at the nut, but I’m open to suggestion.

@Bruce Johnson have any input?


Also, would I be ok to assume that a LMI fingerboard would be pretty much good to go on arrival? Or might it be rough and in need of fine tuning after install?

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Are you going to ever contemplate flats and a bow?

Then you want a fairly tight radius, or you can only bow the outside strings. (or all of them at once, which bassically never really works)

If no bow, then it's just personal preference.

 

[NKBassman]

Are you going to ever contemplate flats and a bow?

Then you want a fairly tight radius, or you can only bow the outside strings.

If no bow, then it's just personal preference.

Flats yes, but definitely no bow. I feel like the drum body would not be conducive to bow playing. haha

 

[T_Bone_TL]

You'd obviously have to bow above the drum shell. But lots of folks don't bow at all, so...

I will say bowing adds options (and my band seems to like it a lot - on the other hand, the Lidl is an actual upright, albeit a plywood low-end model (the model number has been explained as it being 1/50th as good as a top end model... ...or 4 times worse than a 50/4.)

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I don’t typically even leave our campsite until after a few beers and a toke or three

Built-in wheels does deserve some thought. They’d have to be pretty robust for the terrain.

I built this custom cart for Banjozilla, with 14" bicycle wheels, for exactly this purpose. I've probably put 20 miles on it going around bluegrass festivals and gigs. Banjozilla weighs 25 lbs.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Flats yes, but definitely no bow. I feel like the drum body would not be conducive to bow playing. haha

I've tried playing Banjozilla with a bow. Right where the neck joins the body. It works, and the bowing action will definitely make the head roar. It's much louder than plucking. Very loud sustained deep banjo sounds. It's kinda like hearing Godzilla practice opera. Scary, if you can't control it. You could use a bow in bluegrass/folk settings. Assuming that you practice and learn the technique!

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Pencil in several months not trying it in public and wondering if it will ever sound right. But, once I got past the screeching, it started to be useful, and now I bow about 90% of the time. Do be cautious about believing the "helpful" folks that insist that "only a German bow sounds right" "Only a French bow sounds right" Only (fill in the blank)... you get the idea. You can find some of my heresy on the subject by searching over in the bows forum if you're curious. You can also find lots of those "helpful" folks with the "one true way" mindset...

 

[Bruce Johnson]

So… if I am ordering a pre-radiused fretless fingerboard from LMI, I’m hoping someone might have an opinion on whether it would be better to go with a tighter radius or flatter? Looks like I can go as tight as 7.5” on some boards, and up to something like 20” if I remember right. Pretty sure they do not offer compound radius.

My first thought was to go tighter just to conceptually get it closer to an actual upright neck, which I think are something like 4” radius at the nut, but I’m open to suggestion.

@Bruce Johnson have any input?


Also, would I be ok to assume that a LMI fingerboard would be pretty much good to go on arrival? Or might it be rough and in need of fine tuning after install?

I recommend small radius round fingerboard on a bass where you hold the neck vertically. Partly for the right hand strength and hand position, and partly to increase your ability to pluck harder with the left hand. A flatter fingerboard, played upright, will be painful for both hands.

Definitely go with 7 1/4 radius max. If you are more ambitious, get a thicker board and cut it to 4" radius. I use 4" radius on some of my Scroll Bass models, and I personally really like it.

Banjozilla's fingerboard is a cut-down upright bass fingerboard (from Golihar). If I remember right, it's 3 1/2" radius at the heel and 2 1/2" radius at the nut.

LMI's fingerboards are always very accurately machined. But you'll still have to do a little bit of truing up on it after it's glued on the neck.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Pencil in several months not trying it in public and wondering if it will ever sound right. But, once I got past the screeching, it started to be useful, and now I bow about 90% of the time. Do be cautious about believing the "helpful" folks that insist that "only a German bow sounds right" "Only a French bow sounds right" Only (fill in the blank)... you get the idea. You can find some of my heresy on the subject by searching over in the bows forum if you're curious. You can also find lots of those "helpful" folks with the "one true way" mindset...

I agree completely. I'm not very good at all with a bow. I have an old student model bow that came with one of my Kays. I have a beautiful old Kay and the bow sitting there in my music room. Along with Banjozilla, about 20 Scroll Basses, 20 other basses, a nice old upright piano, and stacks of amps. I really should go in there and practice sometimes. But, sadly, I don't have the incentive to spend the time these days. Being a musician is only a very small part of my life right now.

I do know that getting a good bowed sound is almost all about practice and technique. Don't worry about the style and quality of your bow until you are a serious pro. Learn how to use whatever bow you have first.

 

[NKBassman]

Well, I finished hogging out what I'm going to remove from the neck beam, and sanding w/ 80 grit to remove machine marks and burns. As I said earlier this was more a carving practice exercise than actual significant lightening, but it was fun to do and turned out presentable, so I'm calling it a success. I'll be sure to take some pictures next time I'm back in the garage. There's a couple of spots where I can hit it with a spade bit to remove a bit more wood without affecting the strength of the admittedly WAY overbuilt support, and I’ll do that with a drill press when I get over to my friends shop. The angle grinder carving disc and "chainsaw" disc sure do remove wood in a hurry, but admittedly the chainsaw disc especially makes me more than a little nervous every time I fire it up.

Today I ordered a 7.25" radius West African Ebony fingerboard(!) and an extra block of ebony to try and make a matching nut. International shipping was about as much as the wood, and I was considering all kinds of fancy saws and rasps and planes and measuring tools and yadda yadda yadda to make the most out of my shipping dollars, but I decided to minimize my order to just the wood for two reasons:

1. Keeping with the theme of spending as little money as possible on this project, and
2. Keeping the build to simple home-owner grade tooling as much as possible.

I'm not intentionally trying to make it harder for myself to do, but I like the idea of it being a bit janky and homebuilt DIY, but also playable. That's the vibe I'm going for, anyway. Also I'd like it to be an achievable project for other aspiring builders out there, like me.

I picked up a couple of cheap files and a Surform pocket plane from Canadian Tire last weekend for about $30-40 total, and I think between that, the angle grinder, and the random orbital sander I'll be able to do the majority of the facet carving on the neck profile. My dad is also looking around his shop for an old hand plane he thinks he has stashed away somewhere. Dads, amiright?

I guess it's time to start thinking about the neck and how hard I want to make this for myself. In the interest of having this completed by July, I'm leaning towards keeping it more on the simple side. I'll need to find some router bits that'll be appropriate for the truss rod and carbon fibre bars I ordered, and get started cleaning up some timber for the neck. And planning the headstock shape, and figuring out the general plan of attack for cutting out the neck shape and tapers. ...not necessarily in that order...

I’ve decided to make use of some 100 y/o Douglas Fir 2x4s I took out of my house, so at least I have that decision made which gives me limiting dimensions to work within. The boards are a gorgeous reddish colour on the aged exterior, and much lighter with a pinkish hue underneath, which I expect will darken nicely when finished.

My main concerns are

1. These boards are shockingly heavy compared to today's SPF 2x4s,
2. Checking for nails buried in the wood before ruining any saw blades. Especially borrowed saw blades .
3. They are very splintery on the dry outer face.

I got a splinter which broke off under my fingernail when working on the house a few years ago, and I hope to avoid another trip to the doctor. But, this old lumber is also slightly oversized compared to today's boards, and should give me enough material to work with off a single board. That's the intent for now anyway, and dimensionally it seems to jive with some upright bass neck specs I found online.

I also need to address the neck mounting block. At the very least I’m going to clean up the mounting surface as it’s not perfectly true and a little off kilter on one side. The slope is only 2-3 degrees, which explains why the neck angle doesn’t feel right when playing. I’d like to slope it a little more, but playing with the angle of the whole neck beam by changing the lower mount location would mean I dont have to redo the neck mounting holes, which are (or were supposed to be) perpendicular to the face. I also need to balance the angle of the neck with keeping a manageable bridge height.

I’m currently envisioning my first MDF routing fixture to tackle truing up the mounting face .

 

[NKBassman]

How important is it to achieve a tight side-to-side fit for the truss rod? The carbon fibre reinforcing that I ordered is 6.35 mm (1/4") wide, and the truss rod is 6.0 mm. Ideally I would do it all with a 1/4" router bit... would 0.16 mm of play on either side be of serious concern? I'm thinking a few blobs of silicone in the TR slot should be enough to keep it from rattling around. Or else just embed the whole thing in epoxy I suppose.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

How important is it to achieve a tight side-to-side fit for the truss rod? The carbon fibre reinforcing that I ordered is 6.35 mm (1/4") wide, and the truss rod is 6.0 mm. Ideally I would do it all with a 1/4" or 5/16” router bit... would 0.16 mm of play on either side be of serious concern? I'm thinking a few blobs of silicone in the TR slot should be enough to keep it from rattling around. Or else just embed the whole thing in epoxy I suppose.

It's important. The truss rod should be a snug fit inside the neck. Just snug, not pressed in with force. Rout the slot, test fit the truss rod in it, and fill any gaps with a sliver of wood, hard cardboard or paper. Glue them into the slot with wood glue.

I don't like the idea of setting the truss rod into a bed of soft silicone rubber to stop it from rattling. That goes against my principles of building good sounding necks.

As you may know, I'm a big fan of casting my truss rods in a bed of marine epoxy. With my design truss rod and my process, it works very well. But I hesitate to suggest that you do this with a standard commercial DADR truss rod. I've done it myself, successfully. But a few other Luthiers have tried it, from my suggestion, and have had their truss rods lock up solid, unmovable. It's important to get the truss rod waxed well enough that it will break free from the epoxy and move. Too much risk. So I don't recommend this any more.

 

[NKBassman]

Here’s the carving work I did to the support beam. Totally unnecessary, but I left it full thickness in the middle where the springs get placed under the bridge just for fun. The concave carves are done now, but still need to be sanded out. The lines aren’t perfect, but they don’t need to be. I’ll sand it up to 220 and give it a wipe with some oil before it goes back in.

Please excuse the messy bench. It’s long overdue for a tidyin’.

Lots of sketching going on in the background, and plans to get started on the plank for the neck this weekend.

 

[NKBassman]

I was really struggling with laying out the headstock shape, but I think I've finally found something I'm happy with! I found a nice profile shot of the Ampeg Baby Bass and traced the headstock, scaled it to fit, and low and behold it even fits within the thickness of two stacked 2x4s! Now to lay it out in the other dimension, and then figure out how to build it!

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Here’s the carving work I did to the support beam. Totally unnecessary, but I left it full thickness in the middle where the springs get placed under the bridge just for fun. The concave carves are done now, but still need to be sanded out. The lines aren’t perfect, but they don’t need to be. I’ll sand it up to 220 and give it a wipe with some oil before it goes back in.

Please excuse the messy bench. It’s long overdue for a tidyin’.

Lots of sketching going on in the background, and plans to get started on the plank for the neck this weekend.

You'll notice that I have a full support beam through the middle of the shell of Banjozilla. It's actually a neck-through. The center lamination of the neck is one 5 foot long piece of maple, going all the way down through the shell.

You need that center support beam through the shell. The tension of the bass strings can pull a regular bass drum shell a little bit oval, which can mess with the tuning and ringing of the head. Plus you also need the beam for some kind of spring support thing under the bridge.

 

[NKBassman]

You'll notice that I have a full support beam through the middle of the shell of Banjozilla. It's actually a neck-through. The center lamination of the neck is one 5 foot long piece of maple, going all the way down through the shell.

You need that center support beam through the shell. The tension of the bass strings can pull a regular bass drum shell a little bit oval, which can mess with the tuning and ringing of the head. Plus you also need the beam for some kind of spring support thing under the bridge.

No doubt the beam is absolutely necessary, but (I'm assuming) it doesn't necessarily need to be ~3-4" thick from front to back