Double Bass First show last night with the Double Bass!

[darkfinger]

Hi everyone,

My apologies for the longish post
Last night my new band had its debut performance. This was also my debut performance on the double bass (and as lead vocalist!) That's a lot of firsts for one night, and I had some issues that I am hoping you folks could help me out on

First some info:

The venue itself holds around 750-800 people, and the stage is raised about 4' off the floor.

Large, powerful FOH.

My rig:
Bass: Eastman Strings VB 120
Pup: Fishman BP 100 (I know, I know but I was hornswaggled by the sales guy at Long and McQuade back when I first bought the pup and haven't had the $ to pick up a Realist or something similar)
Preamp: ART Tube MP (also on the advice of someone at L&M)
amp: SWR Strawberry Blonde II
I should mention that at quieter levels, this setup sounds pretty good. I'm not a fan of the pup but I can make it work for me.

The issues:
a lot of feedback - during sound check it was almost unbearable until I figured out that standing in front of the drum kit was causing a majority of this. (sympathetic vibrations???), I moved over to stage right and put my backup vocalist in the centre. That cleared up the most unbearable of the noise.
During the performance I noticed that I could not play around the C & D or higher on the G string without the ol' bass squealing like animal caught in a trap.
Any ideas what this could be caused by? is it just because of the way the notes are ringing or is it something to do with my amplification setup? (ie, too much gain or somesuch?)

My bass sounded muddy through the FOH - The first couple of songs there was soooooo much string/finger noise and then just mud. I imagine the sound guy was struggling to deal with all the clicky clacky noise and just cut the highs but then I began to wonder if it wasn't due to the way my amp was eq'd.
Has anyone played live with this amp before, is there a setting that works better for live applications than at a considerably quieter rehearsal?
*edit* I forgot to add that I generally cut the treble quite a bit to get rid of that clacky clicky sound at practice, but not all the way out so I don't lose the good highs.

I'm very new at acoustic amplification so I'm a little lost and any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks again!

 

[jtlownds]

I spent a couple of years playing with a BP100 into an SWR California Blonde. Finger noise is what the BP100 puts out best. You stated that you are the lead singer, so I am assuming that you are playing at the front of the stage, with your amp behind you. That is a recipe for feedback. You need to get your amp beside or even ahead of you, and preferably up on a chair. Placement of your amp in relation to yourself can make a big difference in feedback control.

 

[darkfinger]

Hi Jim, thanks for the reponse.

I actually had my amp up on a chair and around 5' to the left of me, but maybe it wasn't far enough? Next show I'll try to put it hard to stage right and slightly forward of me, but this is a little difficult because as I'm singing lead as well, it puts me right at the front of the stage. How would you monitor your self then if the amp is ahead of you?
Would the stage monitors not cause the same feedback issues as they're facing the bass directly?

 

[standupright]

some good stuff on the subject in here - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95276

 

[thobbinghotrod]

You haven't mentioned if you've covered the basics. Tape up the F-holes with gaffers tape or duct tape, put dense foam under the tailpiece and between the fingerboard and body, and adjust the bass bar ( I've never personally known anyone to do this as it takes some special tools). Then adjust your EQ. Your Mileage May Vary, but cover the basics first.

 

[chuck3]

Would the stage monitors not cause the same feedback issues as they're facing the bass directly?

I'd start with the monitors - that's where I've had my share of feedback problems. The small amp I use as a monitor and DI to the FOH does not, by itself, cause feedback. The monitors do, though.

It is a weird feeling ... like your bass is playing itself. It happens at some venues and not others so I think the size and shape of the room affects it too.

 

[darkfinger]

You haven't mentioned if you've covered the basics. Tape up the F-holes with gaffers tape or duct tape, put dense foam under the tailpiece and between the fingerboard and body, and adjust the bass bar ( I've never personally known anyone to do this as it takes some special tools). Then adjust your EQ. Your Mileage May Vary, but cover the basics first.

Actually, I had no idea that I should have taped the f-holes and put dense foam under the fingerboard and tailpiece. oops!
this may be a dumb question but what's a bass bar? is it the sound post?
Is this something that should be done at every amplified gig? or only for larger rooms with big FOH?

 

[darkfinger]

some good stuff on the subject in here - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95276

Thanks for the link standupright, an interesting read to be sure.
So from what I understand, a notch filter or something like the Fishman pro eq could help with the problem of certain notes and frequencies causing ungodly feedback.
getting rid of the tube mp and replacing it with something like the pro-eq will have to happen sooner than later I suppose, but in the meantime I'm going to have to try throbbinghotrod's advice until I can raise the scratch for a new pre-amp.

 

[nealw]

Assuming that your pickup is installed properly, the combination of of a sweepable notch filter and a phase invert switch (which the fishman pro eq also has) should help immensely. I played in a LOUD rockabilly band for years without damping my bass with foam or taping f-holes.

 

[jtlownds]

Hi Jim, thanks for the reponse.

I actually had my amp up on a chair and around 5' to the left of me, but maybe it wasn't far enough? Next show I'll try to put it hard to stage right and slightly forward of me, but this is a little difficult because as I'm singing lead as well, it puts me right at the front of the stage. How would you monitor your self then if the amp is ahead of you?
Would the stage monitors not cause the same feedback issues as they're facing the bass directly?

I used to stand within 2 feet of my amp, but it was even with me on the stage. No problem hearing myself thru my own amp. I forgot to mention, that since you are running a line out to FOH, have the sound man take you out of the monitors. That can cause all kinds of problems. You should be able to hear yourself thru your own amp. I don't think that you need to tape up your f-holes, and you sure don't need to adjust your bass bar (as one poster suggested). It's glued to the inside of the top plate on the bass side and is NOT adjustable (ecept by a qualified luthier)

 

[AMJBASS]

Don't even consider adjusting the sound post yourself(that is what was meant by the way), unless you have experience doing this. Take it to a luthier. Also, taping up the F holes might work, but will likely leave residue all over the top of the bass. The best solution is to get rid of the pickup. The BP-100 is not a great pickup. There are a FEW basses that it will work on, but generally its way way down the list on pickups to buy. If you need to play at louder volumes, I would look at the Underwood(fits under the bridge wings), or a magnetic pickup. You can get VERY loud with one, although they tend to sound a bit more like a fretless electric.

 

[hofner]

i agree Adrian...
BP100 is the first thing to change. If you plan to play on big stage, at quite loud volume, you should look for a magnetic one for exemple. You'll loose a bit the "acoustic" sound of the bass, but its nothing compare to the feedback and others pains due to poor pu...

the Biesele pu is a magnetic pu and you can blend it with a piezzo, like an underwood, to balance the sound, its quite expensive, but worth the money in your situation i think.

i play, too, in a loud environnment with one of my bands and don't have any feedback : i play with a FWF pu which seem to be very resistant to this problem. Howewer, the set up of the amp is important too : mediums frequencies tend to increase the feedback for exemple.

Your preamp is maybe not the best for an upright bass (it seem to be more a mic tube preamp ), you should try, if you can , with a pro platinum preamp, which is dedicated to upright bass, if you keep the actual configuration (a piezzo and a preamp).

 

[mstclairmiller]

I used to get very bad feedback and had my bass stuffed with polyester wadding etc but when I was forced to change my bridge, all the problems disappeared. I had a much better fitted bridge and much better set up instrument, and have never looked back.

 

[darkfinger]

Yeah, I had a feeling that the BP 100 had to go. The only reason I ended up with that pup is that when I went to the music store looking for a Realist, the sales guy told me that the BP 100 was a better pup and I was naive enough to believe him. When I went to return it a month later (after trying desperately to make it work for me), they told me they didn't have it on my account. Every purchase is supposed to be tracked on the comp so the customer doesn't need a receipt and again, like an idiot I managed to lose my paperwork.

The original sales guy also claimed he didn't remember selling it to me so the shop refused to take it back.

Oh well lesson learned.

I wondered about the pre as well. I think I'm gonna head down to the store (not the one that sold me the pup and preamp) with my bass and try a couple of combinations out on monday. I think I may try using dense foam under the tailpiece and fingerboard at practice just to see if there's a noticeable difference.

I never realized how much trouble it is to amplify these instruments.

That Biesele seems pretty cool but at $559 US that's just over $600 CA and you still need a piezo pup if you want a close representation of your unplugged sound.
I guess the upside is that it has a preamp built in to it...

I notice that while the BP-100 is mounted on the tip of the bridge, the Underwood is mounted under the bridge wings, and the Realist is mounted under the bridge foot. Does this contribute to the clacky tone you get on the BP-100? the sensors are right by the strings and so your fingertips, while the other two put some distance between the strings and the sensors.
Has anyone tried to mount the BP under the bridge feet?
I'm looking at the sensors right now, and it looks to me as if you might be able to do it without damaging the body of the bass or the bridge. Am I crazy?

 

[walterw]

I notice that while the BP-100 is mounted on the tip of the bridge, the Underwood is mounted under the bridge wings, and the Realist is mounted under the bridge foot. Does this contribute to the clacky tone you get on the BP-100? the sensors are right by the strings and so your fingertips, while the other two put some distance between the strings and the sensors.
Has anyone tried to mount the BP under the bridge feet?
I'm looking at the sensors right now, and it looks to me as if you might be able to do it without damaging the body of the bass or the bridge. Am I crazy?

i'm just a guitar tech that's occasionally been drafted into installing an upright pickup, but here's a crazy experiment that i thought worked out really well:

the customer had a BP100 that had no metal clips to hold the sensors to the bridge, and no time for me to order any.

now it's struck me how some of the best sounding pickups fit into that gap in the side of the bridge between the wing and the foot (underwood, k&k, etc), way more natural-sounding than the BP100.

having nothing to lose, really, i took a flat piece of maple maybe 1/8" thick, cut it to the shape of the piezo disks (imagine a wooden nickel), and superglued the two sensors right to it, one on each side, facing each other with the brass side towards the wood.

i then took this thing and slipped it into the gap in the bridge, where it was a little too small. i used thin layers of maple veneer to shim it up until it fit snug but not tight, and glued those shims to the pickup (not the bridge!).

it sounded huge! very high output, very deep, warm sound with no finger squeak.

i know that different materials and different tightness of fit will affect how a piezo sounds stuffed into the wing/foot gap, but by blind luck the all-maple combination along with using two opposite-facing piezos really sounded good.

 

[darkfinger]

Hey Walter,

Which wing did you mount your creation on? On the E - A side or the D - G side?
Did you notice any losses from one side to the other, (eg) if it's mounted on the EA side were the DG strings slightly quieter less defined sounding?

 

[shadygrove]

...having nothing to lose, really, i took a flat piece of maple maybe 1/8" thick, cut it to the shape of the piezo disks (imagine a wooden nickel), and superglued the two sensors right to it, one on each side, facing each other with the brass side towards the wood.

i then took this thing and slipped it into the gap in the bridge, where it was a little too small. i used thin layers of maple veneer to shim it up until it fit snug but not tight, and glued those shims to the pickup (not the bridge!).

it sounded huge! very high output, very deep, warm sound with no finger squeak.

i know that different materials and different tightness of fit will affect how a piezo sounds stuffed into the wing/foot gap, but by blind luck the all-maple combination along with using two opposite-facing piezos really sounded good.

Nice work ... sounds like you created something very similar to Upton's Revolution Solo II. Those are typically installed on the E-A side and although they take some patience to get a good fit I've been happy with mine so far. I've no experience with it at very high volumes though.

 

[walterw]

Hey Walter,

Which wing did you mount your creation on? On the E - A side or the D - G side?
Did you notice any losses from one side to the other, (eg) if it's mounted on the EA side were the DG strings slightly quieter less defined sounding?

i just went by what seems to be the convention, judging by the realist and the full circle, that this type of pickup goes on the E-A side.

it's been a couple years, but i remember it as being loud and proud on all four strings. i can't speak to its feedback resistance, but i never got a complaint from the customer, so i guess it's all right.

my tenuous understanding is that the side-to-side vibration of a string bridge is what produces the "good" tones, and the up-and-down vibration is the home of squeaks and feedback. my theory is that a pickup like this is going to get hit with the side-to-side goodness only, as it's getting driven by that gap actually opening and closing from the bridge flexing from bass side to treble side at its narrow center area.

i believe that this is why the tightness is such a critical issue, as you don't want to choke the bridge's movement by wedging it in too tight.

it's apparent that there's lots of folks posting here who know way more than me about this stuff.

 

[mstclairmiller]

i took a flat piece of maple maybe 1/8" thick, cut it to the shape of the piezo disks (imagine a wooden nickel), and superglued the two sensors right to it,

Excellent tip, Walter. Darkfinger, bear in mind if you try this out that the whole pickup in the wing thing is a friction fit, so you should be able to experiment with shims, bits of cardboard etc without recourse to superglue, which is pretty irreversible.

Re the clickety clack sound, this could also be impedance mismatch between your pickup (~10MegaOhm) and the amp input (~50KOhm). Search the forums on this, but Fdeck makes an excellent product (and also has an excellent article) which is a buffering preamp that will certainly warm the sound up a bit for you. I think he makes them for $50! If I plug my Underwood into a bass guitar amp it sounds like I'm playing a tin can full of nails and I have to dial out most of the mids and boost the bass to get a vaguely useful sound.

 

[darkfinger]

Excellent tip, Walter. Darkfinger, bear in mind if you try this out that the whole pickup in the wing thing is a friction fit, so you should be able to experiment with shims, bits of cardboard etc without recourse to superglue, which is pretty irreversible...

Hmmm, I was thinking the same thing as far as trying to find a friction fit solution as opposed to using superglue, I'm thinking that maybe the little foam thing that came with the pups (the one that doesn't fit the bridge wing) may be useful as a kind of wedge once I've sandwiched the sensors somehow...

I'll let everyone know how it goes once I have a minute to try it out.