First time fretless - where's the MWAH?

[Jason Sypher]

I'm not sure if what people are terming a "flat neck" is quite what I'm going after. All bass necks ( at least the one's I'm familiar with have some radius
to the fingerboard. Both my Lakland 55-94 Lined Fretless and my Godin LR Baggs Acoustibass have radiused fingerboards. A Double Bass has a radius fingerboard that's more curved than EB's and that works well with a fretless instrument ( Violin's, Violas, and Cello's do as well) If you look at the shape of your hand in playing position over the fingerboard there's a natural curve of the fingers and the thumb as well so you need some curve. So this "Mwah" ( Attack, Sustain, Delay and Release profile) is a partly a result of having no frets on the fingerboard and a bridge with adjusters that mimics the radius of the fingerboard so it's easier for your fingers to play. Just my take.View attachment 7444299View attachment 7444305View attachment 7444306

Sighting down the neck from the nut towards the bridge. Almost no, or very little relief.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I'm not sure if what people are terming a "flat neck" is quite what I'm going after. All bass necks ( at least the one's I'm familiar with have some radius
to the fingerboard. Both my Lakland 55-94 Lined Fretless and my Godin LR Baggs Acoustibass have radiused fingerboards. A Double Bass has a radius fingerboard that's more curved than EB's and that works well with a fretless instrument ( Violin's, Violas, and Cello's do as well) If you look at the shape of your hand in playing position over the fingerboard there's a natural curve of the fingers and the thumb as well so you need some curve. So this "Mwah" ( Attack, Sustain, Delay and Release profile) is a partly a result of having no frets on the fingerboard and a bridge with adjusters that mimics the radius of the fingerboard so it's easier for your fingers to play. Just my take.View attachment 7444299View attachment 7444305View attachment 7444306

Sighting down the neck from the nut towards the bridge. Almost no, or very little relief

 

[logdrum]

It's in Santa Fe NM. The search is afoot

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[ctmullins]

It's in Santa Fe NM. The search is afoot

Meow Wolf Santa Fe | Immersive Art Experience | House of Eternal Return

Meow Wolf’s House of Eternal Return in Santa Fe, NM is an immersive art experience featuring non-linear storytelling which unfolds through interactive installations.

meowwolf.com

View attachment 7444550View attachment 7444549

Escaping through the refrigerator is genius!

 

[pb9717]

For the OP:

Most all of that on recordings is in post-pro or mixing.... but that fretless tone (and the mwah) should exist without effects. All of those things were very popular with 80s and some 90s producers for sure in the mixing stage.

Example: Pino showcasing his line on 'Wherever I Lay My Hat...' with just a 'dry' setup in this video. In the recording, it was laden with chorus and delay by producer Laurie Latham.... but it existed without all of that first. Video 2 is me playing the line on my fretless Sadowsky.... with some reverb added in the final recording, but not part of the dry original tone.

Pino Palladino - Wherever I Lay My Hat....

Me playing 'Wherever I Lay My Hat'.... Sadowsky Fretless

Ha! I know that metroexpress!! That was one of my modded units! Beautiful tone and the re-installed OEM bridge looks to have worked out handsomely. Nice job on that !

 

[BassicJazzy]

Perhaps some pics might help. Set up your fretless like this and you will get good controllable mwah when you want it. This is side view of neck - my SR370EF with chromes.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Oh, forgot to add that fretboard radius has nothing to do with mwah. You could put strings on a baseball bat and get it to mwah all day long.

 

[ardgedee]

Oh, forgot to add that fretboard radius has nothing to do with mwah. You could put strings on a baseball bat and get it to mwah all day long.

Only at certain positions on the neck unless you have the string paths leveled.

These days you can count on almost any modern bass shipped from the factory as a fretless to have the paths already leveled and nut cut to appropriate height. I'm sure there are exceptions but I would rather run with the assumption and only deal with an exception if it proves itself necessary.

 

[MonetBass]

Also, most of the mwah we're used to from Pedullas especially is the hard epoxy coating. I believe the Sire's are a different finish. That+ string type + technique is why.

Pedulla used a polyester finish on their fretless fingerboards, which is very hard and durable. Sire uses something similar, but I can't find anything to confirm that.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Pedulla used a polyester finish on their fretless fingerboards, which is very hard and durable. Sire uses something similar, but I can't find anything to confirm that.

It's not a thick finish on the Sires, but it is probably poly. Not like the Jaco bass, but enough to protect the fingerboard from unusual wear, without giving the bass that overly bright tone that comes with thick poly.

 

[iqi616]

Me playing 'Wherever I Lay My Hat'.... Sadowsky Fretless

Nice!

 

[GIBrat51]

I recently picked up a Sire Marcus Miller V7 2nd Generation 4-string Fretless Bass. I'm not sure what the strings are that came on it from Sweetwater.

It has a hard maple neck and fingerboard. I'm looking to get much more 'mwah' from it that I seem to be able to now.

I've been advised to get DR Sunbeams. Does that sound right?

Mwah comes from the interaction of the strings and fingerboard. This is a function of your bass's setup and your playing technique. The lower the string's angle from where your finger is stopping the string, the more mwah you get. The closer your picking hand is to the middle of the string, the more mwah you get.

So before buying anything, set up the bass with low action and check your technique.

I'll have to agree withe this. However...

Those ship with D’Addario Chromes, which are flats….not good for mwahhh really. Rounds with low action should give it in spades. Sunbeams are a good choice. I like Dunlop Super Brights...

I think I'll have to disagree with this...

I currently own four fretless basses - and a bunch of fretted ones, too. Three fretless ones wear flat wounds; one wears tapes. All of them "mwah" quite satisfactorily. And, for the record? They're left handed basses, and they "mwah" just like right handed ones... They are;
1. '93 Fury Anthem lined fretless. 32" scale, with a Pau Ferro fingerboard. It was built to use tape wounds only (don't ask how I found that out...), and to sound as much like an upright bass as a medium scale electric bass can. With it's Roto TruBass 88's? It certainly does a good job... The strings are as low, and the neck is as straight, as I can get away with. I use the same finger technique as I would with an upright; it "mwahs" as well as the Roto's (comparative) lack of sustain will let it. I was... disappointed with the Pau Ferro fingerboard initially; it's comparatively soft for a fingerboard, IMO. But, the more I play it? The more I think the choice of Pau Ferro was deliberate, and the softness contributes to the upright vibe... TBH, the bass was very well played when I bought it, and although there looks to be considerable wear? I can't really feel much...
2. '24 Birdsong Fusion lined fretless. 31" scale, with an Ebony fingerboard. All Birdsong basses are 31" scale, and unless you specify other strings? They ship with the long scale only D'Addario ECB82 Chromes. I don't use D'Addario strings if I can help it, but Birdsong's owner assured me that the basses - and their proprietary pickups - were built for those strings. So, that's what mine came with. Again, the bass is set up for low action/straight-ish neck. Does it "mwah"? Does a cat have an ass? The Chromes have a lot of sustain, and the "mwah" to go with it. And, this is a short scale bass...
3. '24 Schecter Stiletto Studio 4FL lined fretless. 34" scale, Ebony fingerboard. It came from the factory with Ernie Ball Group IV Flats. Again, low string height/ straight-ish neck. Other than being a little more flexible than the ECB82's - and a little less bright? Plenty of sustain - and "mwah"...
4. '24 G&L Kiloton lined fretless. Custom Shop, since it's a lefty; 34" scale, Ebony Fingerboard. It came with some kind of rounds - probably D'Addario EXL160's - which lasted about 5 minutes past the initial function check. Did they "mwah"? Yes they did. And, to my nerve damaged, frostbitten fingers; did they feel like a wood rasp when they did? Why, yes... yes, they did. They got replaced - very quickly - with a set of La Bella LTF-4A Low Tension Flats. Nicely flexible; good sustain; and they also "mwah" quite well. The Kiloton is set up like the other fretless basses are, and TBH? It's the one I play pretty much like I play any of my fretted basses - most of the time...
Honestly? I don't get the obsession with "maximum mwah". Just like I don't get the obsession with sustain. Yes, I have several basses that can sustain 'till the cows come home. But... who in the Hell needs that much?!? Even the basses I own that sustain the least, have enough for the songs I play with them. As for the basses I own that sustain the most? That's not a feature, AFAIC; that's a failure... And I'm afraid that that goes for "mwah", too...

 

[woodyng2]

This is really surprising for me. Chorus and reverb are not something I've typically thought about with bass. How interesting...and a whole new rabbit hole to dive into ... sigh $ in $$ out.

With fretless, I would add a good octaver as well. Really helps phatten up those upper registers fills.
String choice is very subjective, but I love the sound and feel of Labella Copper White Tapewounds.
I’ve also used the “plain” white, (brighter) and classic black (darker, more urb sounding) Labella versions, which are quite good.

 

[BassicJazzy]

I'll have to agree withe this. However...


I think I'll have to disagree with this...

I currently own four fretless basses - and a bunch of fretted ones, too. Three fretless ones wear flat wounds; one wears tapes. All of them "mwah" quite satisfactorily. And, for the record? They're left handed basses, and they "mwah" just like right handed ones... They are;
1. '93 Fury Anthem lined fretless. 32" scale, with a Pau Ferro fingerboard. It was built to use tape wounds only (don't ask how I found that out...), and to sound as much like an upright bass as a medium scale electric bass can. With it's Roto TruBass 88's? It certainly does a good job... The strings are as low, and the neck is as straight, as I can get away with. I use the same finger technique as I would with an upright; it "mwahs" as well as the Roto's (comparative) lack of sustain will let it. I was... disappointed with the Pau Ferro fingerboard initially; it's comparatively soft for a fingerboard, IMO. But, the more I play it? The more I think the choice of Pau Ferro was deliberate, and the softness contributes to the upright vibe... TBH, the bass was very well played when I bought it, and although there looks to be considerable wear? I can't really feel much...
2. '24 Birdsong Fusion lined fretless. 31" scale, with an Ebony fingerboard. All Birdsong basses are 31" scale, and unless you specify other strings? They ship with the long scale only D'Addario ECB82 Chromes. I don't use D'Addario strings if I can help it, but Birdsong's owner assured me that the basses - and their proprietary pickups - were built for those strings. So, that's what mine came with. Again, the bass is set up for low action/straight-ish neck. Does it "mwah"? Does a cat have an ass? The Chromes have a lot of sustain, and the "mwah" to go with it. And, this is a short scale bass...
3. '24 Schecter Stiletto Studio 4FL lined fretless. 34" scale, Ebony fingerboard. It came from the factory with Ernie Ball Group IV Flats. Again, low string height/ straight-ish neck. Other than being a little more flexible than the ECB82's - and a little less bright? Plenty of sustain - and "mwah"...
4. '24 G&L Kiloton lined fretless. Custom Shop, since it's a lefty; 34" scale, Ebony Fingerboard. It came with some kind of rounds - probably D'Addario EXL160's - which lasted about 5 minutes past the initial function check. Did they "mwah"? Yes they did. And, to my nerve damaged, frostbitten fingers; did they feel like a wood rasp when they did? Why, yes... yes, they did. They got replaced - very quickly - with a set of La Bella LTF-4A Low Tension Flats. Nicely flexible; good sustain; and they also "mwah" quite well. The Kiloton is set up like the other fretless basses are, and TBH? It's the one I play pretty much like I play any of my fretted basses - most of the time...
Honestly? I don't get the obsession with "maximum mwah". Just like I don't get the obsession with sustain. Yes, I have several basses that can sustain 'till the cows come home. But... who in the Hell needs that much?!? Even the basses I own that sustain the least, have enough for the songs I play with them. As for the basses I own that sustain the most? That's not a feature, AFAIC; that's a failure... And I'm afraid that that goes for "mwah", too...

I think people are confusing mwah with sustain when they talk about rounds on fretless. Good flats will mwah almost as well as rounds, but rounds will sustain longer. A harder board will also sustain longer than a softer board, all other things being equal. That's just simple physics. The harder board won't interact with as much of the string so won't deaden the vibration as quickly. Same can be said about stiffness of the string. Stiffer won't interact with as much wood as the floppier string, therefore will sustain longer. People going for an upright sound, or instruments trying to emulate one, would prefer a floppier string, like tapes. Uprights have no significant sustain, so you would want a string on your EB fretless that emulated that.