First time fretless - where's the MWAH?

[enzodm]

(...) file nut slots down almost to the finger board (...) pluck strings over the finger board.

+1

I defretted my first fretless by myself, and asking here on the forum, these two suggestions were the most effective for mwah (but of course also low action is needed etc). I did not want to believe the nut could be filed down so much, yet now it just makes strings stay in their place but at the level of the fingerboard, and it is perfectly okay. In particular for notes in the first frets. Also, plucking on the neck helps.
I do not even know which roundwound strings I am using (it's an experiments bass, strings are residuals from other basses).

 

[Dbassmon]

Flat neck, flat as possible, Mwah is the result of the string vibrating against the board. The string vibrating against the FB will produce a note that swells and gives you a singing quality. There should be no bow in the neck... flat! If you pluck near the neck, the mwah is exaggerated because there is more play as opposed to near the bridge, where the string is tighter.
Low action, but not at the expense of notes not ringing.

Round wound strings will not destroy the fingerboard. You will see the winds abrade the neck, but it will be decades before you need to sand the neck. It's a bass; use the strings that give you the sound you want, and don't worry about having to sand the fingerboard in 15 years.

 

[PNW Tony]

Flat neck, flat as possible, Mwah is the result of the string vibrating against the board. Sight the neck, there should be no bow... flat!
Low action, but not at the expense of notes not ringing.

Round wound strings will not destroy the fingerboard. You will see the winds abrade the neck, but it will be decades before you need to sand the neck. It's a bass, use the strings that give you the sound you want ,and don't worry about having to sand the fingerboard in 15 years.

Well stated

 

[pb9717]

Plus one on filing the nut. The string slots should be approximately between 10 and 20,000ths above the fret board.

 

[Ric Vice]

I'm not sure if what people are terming a "flat neck" is quite what I'm going after. All bass necks ( at least the one's I'm familiar with have some radius
to the fingerboard. Both my Lakland 55-94 Lined Fretless and my Godin LR Baggs Acoustibass have radiused fingerboards. A Double Bass has a radius fingerboard that's more curved than EB's and that works well with a fretless instrument ( Violin's, Violas, and Cello's do as well) If you look at the shape of your hand in playing position over the fingerboard there's a natural curve of the fingers and the thumb as well so you need some curve. So this "Mwah" ( Attack, Sustain, Delay and Release profile) is a partly a result of having no frets on the fingerboard and a bridge with adjusters that mimics the radius of the fingerboard so it's easier for your fingers to play. Just my take.

 

[Thumpin6string]

+1

I defretted my first fretless by myself, and asking here on the forum, these two suggestions were the most effective for mwah (but of course also low action is needed etc). I did not want to believe the nut could be filed down so much, yet now it just makes strings stay in their place but at the level of the fingerboard, and it is perfectly okay. In particular for notes in the first frets. Also, plucking on the neck helps.
I do not even know which roundwound strings I am using (it's an experiments bass, strings are residuals from other basses).

View attachment 7444291

I even get mwah on open strings. I just use the same rounds as on my fretted bass. Mine is also a self built bass. See my sig for link to it.

 

[enzodm]

I'm not sure if what people are terming a "flat neck" is quite what I'm going after. All bass necks ( at least the one's I'm familiar with have some radius to the fingerboard.

Flat in longitudinal sense

 

[ColinR]

As many, many threads have stated, this is not true on the whole. It depends on your technique and the hardness of the fingerboard in question. Rosewood and ebony will last a long time (in some cases, decades) before the fingerboard needs attention. I've been playing my fretless with an ebony board for a couple of years with only roundwounds on it, and you can barely see any marks on it.

Absolutely. Many pros who make fretless their voice use rounds.
I personally have used nothing but rounds since the 90's on fretless and have never had to refinish or replace a fingerboard.

 

[Ric Vice]

Flat in longitudinal sense

This is evidently way beyond my pay grade. Thanks for some clarification. Much appreciated.

 

[dangomez66]

I recently picked up a Sire Marcus Miller V7 2nd Generation 4-string Fretless Bass. I'm not sure what the strings are that came on it from Sweetwater.

It has a hard maple neck and fingerboard. I'm looking to get much more 'mwah' from it that I seem to be able to now.

I've been advised to get DR Sunbeams. Does that sound right?

Also, most of the mwah we're used to from Pedullas especially is the hard epoxy coating. I believe the Sire's are a different finish. That+ string type + technique is why.

 

[Rimshot]

Mwah formula:
- Round-wound strings
- Lower action
- Tone wide open

More of "That Fretless Tone" people usually talk about:
- Very gentle overdrive or distortion
- Boost the high-mids a bit.
- Chorus to taste
- Just a touch of reverb. Like, only enough that you notice it when you turn off the reverb.

Gentle overdrive I can do! Still looking for a good reverb that works with my bass and rig (P-bass, Jack Casady, and now the Sire fretless jazz into compressor, mxr bass pre, bass OD, (reverb goes here!) > into GK MB500 with 1x15 and 2x10 cabs (SWR)

 

[Rimshot]

Also agreed with @FullumMusic, chorus and reverbs helps a lot.
Here is a video I made that illustrates what I would consider as the “mwah sound”.

This is really surprising for me. Chorus and reverb are not something I've typically thought about with bass. How interesting...and a whole new rabbit hole to dive into ... sigh $ in $$ out.

 

[JazznFunk]

More of "That Fretless Tone" people usually talk about:
- Very gentle overdrive or distortion
- Boost the high-mids a bit.
- Chorus to taste
- Just a touch of reverb. Like, only enough that you notice it when you turn off the reverb.

For the OP:

Most all of that on recordings is in post-pro or mixing.... but that fretless tone (and the mwah) should exist without effects. All of those things were very popular with 80s and some 90s producers for sure in the mixing stage.

Example: Pino showcasing his line on 'Wherever I Lay My Hat...' with just a 'dry' setup in this video. In the recording, it was laden with chorus and delay by producer Laurie Latham.... but it existed without all of that first. Video 2 is me playing the line on my fretless Sadowsky.... with some reverb added in the final recording, but not part of the dry original tone.

Pino Palladino - Wherever I Lay My Hat....

Me playing 'Wherever I Lay My Hat'.... Sadowsky Fretless

 

[Mrmatt1972]

Bump up the upper mids

But technique is number one. The stronger your left hand the better. The interaction of meat and string with fretboard is the way. You can experiment with pressure and listen to find the mwah.

Also, upright fingering is helpful. 1st, 2nd and half position will get you started.
Thomastic Infeld jazz flats strings are the best in my book.

 

[tindrum]

This is evidently way beyond my pay grade. Thanks for some clarification. Much appreciated.

It’s super simple. It’s just a matter of adjusting the truss rod to achieve the flat neck. Lots of tutorials on YouTube. If you aren’t comfortable have a good tech do set up with roundwounds and tell them what you are after.

 

[Water buffalo]

I have DR Black Beauties on my Tobias Std. I'ts set up for maximum whaw.

 

[sawzalot]

Couple more things:

+1 to the myth that roundwounds chew up the fretboard. They don't, or at least don't very much. They'll make some light marks. Unless you've got a deathgrip on the neck or are bending the strings instead of a back-and-forth fretless vibrato, they won't hurt the neck. I played one fretless for 10 years and it only need a tiny sanding after all that time.

+1 to the idea that the bass matters. I've played and listened to TONS of fretless basses. Some sing and have mwah, and some just don't. You can do all the setup, board coating, string selection, technique, etc. but if the bass doesn't sing, it just won't mwah. I've had great luck with EBMM Stingray5 and USA Sterling models, every one of those that I've owned has been outstanding. I've owned fretless basses from other manufacturers that were also great, and some that weren't. When you find one that really sings, you will absolutely know it.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Strongly advise you to get a pro set-up. My Sire P5R came very poorly set up from the factory. Sire tends to set the action too high, and even though it was high I had fret buzz in areas, meaning the neck relief wasn't right. My Ibanez SR370EF came set up low, but it did not intone correctly at the 12 fret line. I had it lowered even a bit more with a proper set up and Chromes put on in place of round wounds, and it will mwah all day long.

Regarding technique, digging in a bit with the plucking hand will always give you more mwah, as will plucking near the neck. Mwah should be "on demand" not "always on." If you get mwah all the time you are set up too low, or plucking too hard.

 

[dmt]

This is evidently way beyond my pay grade. Thanks for some clarification. Much appreciated.

"Flat" as being used here refers to the neck "relief", which is adjustable via the truss rod. This is along the length of the neck (the long way, or the mentioned "longitudinal"). The opposite of a flat neck is a bowed neck (hopefully a concave bow), where the the strings would be higher above the fretboard (or here, fingerboard) in the middle of the neck. With a flat neck, the truss rod has been adjusted so that the neck has little or no bow and the strings are a pretty constant height across the length of the fretboard. I’ve never set a neck perfectly flat myself (I go for minimum relief, so close to flat. But not perfectly flat). You could set the neck for a back bow (convex, as shown in the picture from below from Fender’s website), but then not all of the notes would be fully playable. More likely, you might find that situation in an improperly set up instrument or one that had experienced a major humidity change after being set up.

Meanwhile, what you were talking about is fingerboard radius, the [essentially permanent] curve across the width of the neck that is built into the fingerboard/fretboard, which can be expressed as the radius of a circle that would have the same amount of curvature (ex., 7.25", 9.5", 12", etc.). Fingerboard radius is a parameter that isn’t adjustable without getting into removing wood (so, not a normal user adjustment; not part of setting up an instrument. Changing fingerboard radius would require a modification). As you say, some curve (radius) to the fretboard/fingerboard is desirable as such a shape matches the human hand

 

[Bob Coldwell]

Flat in longitudinal sense

Yes, as in no relief.