Double Bass Five string bass setup considerations

[JBarz]

Hey gang,

Very green novice luthier here.

I’ve never setup a five string upright before and was hoping ya’ll could hip me to any special considerations I should keep in mind when thinking about this stuff, particularly in regard to string spacing at nut/bridge, sound post placement, etc. CGDAE 5ths tuning.

I understand there’s no “standard”, but if any of you more experienced guys have any tips or formula you find works, I’d super appreciate the help and guidance.

I intend to take many deep breaths and work veeeery slowly.

Thank ye!

Jeremy

 

[Steven Ayres]

The specific instrument itself is a big set of variables, I'm sure some respond better than others. I can say that it's important to be more aware of the additional tension on the sound table relative to the four-string. If you find you're having trouble getting a full sound, lighter strings or lower open pitches may help. Another frequent issue is the arch of the bridge for bowing — string spacing is a little tighter and the tolerances lower for providing freedom for bow movement, so you may prefer more arch than a typical four needs, which gets into the fingerboard, of course.

 

[crd]

Unrelated, but I want to hear a 5 string bass tuned in fifths. What's the player do with all that range?

I play a five string. It was very hard to get the set-up right. It has a lot to do with the person's playing style. I would definitely try and find someone to share their measurements for the bridge and nut. I think the luthier I used had models from a Pollmann the used.

 

[JBarz]

I also am very excited to hear this bass! I had ordered it for a customer like a year and a half ago, but it was on super back order for ages. I thought it wasn’t going to happen and the customer has long moved on, but I’ve been scheming on how to get myself in a 5’r for a while anyway. I got the call that it came in a couple days ago and, without hesitation, am snagging it for my own bad self to fulfill this particular fantasy of mine.

I play primarily great American songbook material and sing. Recently I’ve been channeling ole Red Mitchell by way of full immersion into his extensive body of work and his preferred 5ths tuning (and general philosophy on life- dude was on point!). Just within the past couple days something has clicked and ‘I’m back, baby!’ (It’s been a rough transition, a lot of “why did I take this on?” “What was I thinking?” “As if life isn’t hard enough!”)

I’m really excited about this tuning for my solo work because of the accessibility of the harmonic shapes. Any Major/Minor/dominant 7th chord rooted off the bottom two strings will be accessible in a 1,5,3,7 voicing. Not to mention, Oh! the arco possibilities! I was trained 25+ years as a horn player, so being able to get on up on the high E string when I’m chasing a line up there will be a dream come true, for sure.

@crd - Man, could I trouble you to take the nut and bridge spacing measurements off your bass?

 

[Blues Daddy]

total string width at nut (E to C) = ~ 1-7/8" ( string to string are each ~ 3/8" )

total at bridge (E to C) = ~ 3-1/4" ( string to string are each ~ 7/8" )

Cheers!

 

[Blues Daddy]

sorry - I can't figure out how to edit the above . . . .

total string width at nut (E to C) = ~ 1-1/2"

 

[JBarz]

View attachment 5185633

total string width at nut (E to C) = ~ 1-7/8" ( string to string are each ~ 3/8" )



View attachment 5185634

total at bridge (E to C) = ~ 3-1/4" ( string to string are each ~ 7/8" )

Cheers!

My man! Thank you - that’s really helpful. I ordered an extra nut so I have some wiggle room to experiment.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Getting the curve on the bridge crown right is gonna drive you nuts, especially if the customer plays German.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I tried to maximize the string to string angle when bowing by enlarging the bridge crown curvature, but forgot to leave enough room not to touch the treble side bout with the bow. I had more than enough clearance on the bass side, so my luthier put a wedge below the fingerboard to lift up the treble side and put some wood in between the bridge legs (with adjusters) and he used the same curvature that I made, but more lowered at the bass side.
Much closer to a 4-string now, as close as possible for the instrument.
But now playing the lowest string needs to take the bow more backwards than before, so one has to adjust to it a bit. Also jumping over some strings needs a larger angle than before, but still less than on a 4-string.

So might be wise to talk with the customer what he prefers, a standard curvature or a maximized one which might need some fingerboard work.

 

[crd]

@crd - Man, could I trouble you to take the nut and bridge spacing measurements off your bass?

I can. The spacing isn't the tricky part. (Also, I think the spacing is largely about the bass. I think for some reason a flatter fingerboard works better for a five string that a fingerboard with a lot of curve.)

Getting the curve on the bridge crown right is gonna drive you nuts, especially if the customer plays German.

This is the tricky part! Also, fingerboard dressing is extra hard. I like an old school set-up with plenty of room for the string excursion. I still think I could get my set-up a little more dialed in. The strings you use have a lot to do with getting it right. Personally I love the closer spacing for pizz and arco. It's easy once you get used to it. If I were you, I would take the instrument to someone who does this sort of stuff for a major orchestra and pick their brains about it.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Getting from the lowest string to the highest on a 5-string with a large bridge curvature can be a bit hard. But when do you need that?

I once got a Clevinger EUB that was rebuilt for a 5-string. The former owner wanted a bridge curvature that meets a four string, so the wider fingerboard for the 5-string (wider than the neck) was mich more curved. So much that the was no side edge at the end of the fingerboard. (I glued some wood below the end of the fingerboard to avoid blisters on my right thumb.)
I sometimes bow it a bit and then the angles are so large (specially compared to my 5-string acoustic E.Wilfer) that jumping from the lowest to the highest string is slow because of the large angle and using a German bow.

I wouldn‘t go as far as on the EUB (if I ever have to replace the fingerboard it gets a normal 5-string board), but me and others liked the curvature on my acoustic bass. It is just more work to get the optimum out.

 

[MikeCanada]

Robert Spear makes New Violin Family instruments. It was originally a concept by a maker called Carleen Hutchins with the idea of building a violin family with violin proportions instead of the sizes, shapes, and tunings we have landed on with the modern violin, viola, cello, and bass. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Several of the instruments are designed to be in 5ths like the violin, but he also talks about variations of tunings in 4ths as well, so people in both tunings are happy. I believe that Tomoya Aomori's instrument is one of Robert Spear's basses. He referred to it as a "5bass" with it being a 5 string in 5ths, low C to high e as described.

Tomoya was at one point around 2010-15? producing content about the instrument in this tuning, showing fingerings and variations for orchestral excerpts, writing and arranging a significant amount of music featuring it, and I believe even produced a technique book.

Mario Lamarre makes 5 string basses, often featuring an extension or two. He made a bass intended for this tuning with a removable neck and a second neck with 4 strings. And if you want to look at pretty basses, his work is beautiful. Contemporary Stringed-Instrument Making

There was some interest in "what does it sound like?" "where does it come from?" type stuff, so I thought that might help.

There are more qualified people to talk about execution, but I would consider priorities of the player too. Are they looking to spend all of their time up there on the top string doing between-a-bass-and-a-cello type stuff, or are they looking for an "extra gear" they can pull out in niche situations where they need it, but they're playing in the bass part of the bass 90% of the time? Ideally the instrument can do everything well, and often players will modify their posture for solo playing vs. orchestral playing, (or "lots of high stuff" vs. "lots of low stuff" in other genres) but see what they intend to do with it.

Where a low 5th string is "out of the way" and you can reach over for it when you need it, a high 5th string always has to be reached over in order to get to the rest of the bass, which kind of puts it "in the way" when not in use. That tends to be the con/downside you hear from the handful of people with 5 string high tuning double basses, but more commonly from extended range electric players. If you're using it regularly, it's an asset. If you're not, then go back to a 4 string, the way our good L(e)ord Fender intended it.

I really enjoyed Tomoya's original music, and the role that instrument can play particularly in smaller ensembles. It really bridges the gap between cello and bass nicely instead of making it seem like there's such a huge divide between them, and the upper register really opens up. It doesn't quite sound "like a bass" up there, but like the instrument that should be between a bass and a cello, and instead of having that high octane-we're at the top of the instrument-feeling you get from playing near the end of the fingerboard, it could breathe a bit more. Have fun with it. I definitely think there's a "missing sibling" in the violin family somewhere down there, and it would be great to see it adopted/adapted more.

 

[JBarz]

There are more qualified people to talk about execution, but I would consider priorities of the player too. Are they looking to spend all of their time up there on the top string doing between-a-bass-and-a-cello type stuff, or are they looking for an "extra gear" they can pull out in niche situations where they need it, but they're playing in the bass part of the bass 90% of the time? Ideally the instrument can do everything well, and often players will modify their posture for solo playing vs. orchestral playing, (or "lots of high stuff" vs. "lots of low stuff" in other genres) but see what they intend to do with it.

mike, thanks for the info! Diggin on Tomoya’s stuff now!

Long before I intended to learn how to play bass, I spent years trying to play guitar like Joe Pass - specifically his solo and duet work where he’s walking bass lines and comping simultaneously. After a couple decades of chasing that sound, I realized guitar bass didn’t quite “do it” for me and I picked up upright and left guitar behind. Now, about another decade later I’m trying to do a similar thing on bass. Red really hipped me to the fact that this is, in fact, possible, but limited on standard EADG tuning. I was considering getting a custom 6 string bass cut EADGBE to use my guitar chord voicings, but after dabbling in 5ths tuning for a couple months, I can see why it’s better suited for this end.

I could only find one high E string option (obligato high E solo) - it comes in today! I am hoping that it balances with the weich RM spiros I’ve got, but might need to use the mittels to balance the tension.

Thanks again for your help. The bass comes in this week and I’m really excited!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

A full 5ths 5-string Obligato set is not right for you?

On the other hand, the Obligato high C pairs a lot better with a Spiro 4/4 Mittel 4-ths tuning G than the Obligato 4-the tuning G, because of the relatively high tension.
Might be similar with a high E string.

 

[MikeCanada]

The Obligatos 5ths set used to have tension issues and the low C string especially rolled a LOT under the left hand. I have heard they put some work into it and improved it but haven't personally given them a second chance. My bass has had them in 4ths and 5ths at different points and it just doesn't work for me, as much as I want to like the idea of them. I think you will find that it's going to be a bit of a special beast because it's a high e string regardless to what "line" of string it is, so I'm interested in what your perspective on it will be.

I have an electric bass in 5ths CGDa, and have thought about a 5 string because of the chord opportunities. Because of the tuning 3rds are quite awkward under the hand, but 6ths and 10ths are really easy to grab, as well as many of the more flavourful chord extensions that would either be too many positions or strings away in 4ths. down on a C string things can get muddy, but with a high e, you would have a lot more options for denser chords or more extensions working nicer because of the higher register. I'm curious about it on double bass too, but don't have "buy a bunch of basses" money.

I found it helpful to spend some time both figuring out what notes are available to you on neighboring strings when you are writing your own bass lines or melodies, but also to think about some of the "shapes" around you, so you can know that a major 6th is "one string over and two frets up" and a major 10th is "two strings over, two frets up" which can take some of the terror out of "where did I end up and how do I get back to somewhere safe?" when you are trying to wrap your brain around everything. Different angles/approaches helped me really learn the fingerboard again, so mixing things up a bit instead of getting stuck in a rut can help you reinforce things while making it feel a bit new/fresh.

Have fun, and if you're looking for "bass and comping at the same time" the Chapman Stick might be something worth exploring too, but I'm not sure if we're allowed to talk about it in a bass forum...

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The Obligatos 5ths set used to have tension issues and the low C string especially rolled a LOT under the left hand. I have heard they put some work into it and improved it but haven't personally given them a second chance. My bass has had them in 4ths and 5ths at different points and it just doesn't work for me, as much as I want to like the idea of them. I think you will find that it's going to be a bit of a special beast because it's a high e string regardless to what "line" of string it is, so I'm interested in what your perspective on it will be.

I have an electric bass in 5ths CGDa, and have thought about a 5 string because of the chord opportunities. Because of the tuning 3rds are quite awkward under the hand, but 6ths and 10ths are really easy to grab, as well as many of the more flavourful chord extensions that would either be too many positions or strings away in 4ths. down on a C string things can get muddy, but with a high e, you would have a lot more options for denser chords or more extensions working nicer because of the higher register. I'm curious about it on double bass too, but don't have "buy a bunch of basses" money.

I found it helpful to spend some time both figuring out what notes are available to you on neighboring strings when you are writing your own bass lines or melodies, but also to think about some of the "shapes" around you, so you can know that a major 6th is "one string over and two frets up" and a major 10th is "two strings over, two frets up" which can take some of the terror out of "where did I end up and how do I get back to somewhere safe?" when you are trying to wrap your brain around everything. Different angles/approaches helped me really learn the fingerboard again, so mixing things up a bit instead of getting stuck in a rut can help you reinforce things while making it feel a bit new/fresh.

Have fun, and if you're looking for "bass and comping at the same time" the Chapman Stick might be something worth exploring too, but I'm not sure if we're allowed to talk about it in a bass forum...

You can always put Obligato on top and Spiros on bottom.

I’m not able to play two lines on a bass. If it is rhythmically not too complicated I can sing and play two different lines, best if it is improvising the voice without words that I cannot remember anyway.

 

[JBarz]

Found lots of good pertinent info here:
The 5-String Double Bass - Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Also, upon reviewing my Traeger book, the only mention of five strings is p23 where he says they never sound as good as four strings because the wider spacing stiffens the neck (& bass). I know a lot of his stuff is controversial, but this does kinda make sense to me. Would it stand to reason that (within reason) the narrower I can comfortably make the string spacing, the better?

 

[JBarz]

It came in yesterday and is stunning. So stunning, in fact, that my novice luthier arse has opted to get Randy Hunt over in Nashville to set it up for me next month (if I can exercise any degree of patience). When/if I ever setup a fiver myself I’ll have his work and process as a reference to instill more confidence. Thanks for your help, all.

 

[jmpiwonka]

It came in yesterday and is stunning. So stunning, in fact, that my novice luthier arse has opted to get Randy Hunt over in Nashville to set it up for me next month (if I can exercise any degree of patience). When/if I ever setup a fiver myself I’ll have his work and process as a reference to instill more confidence. Thanks for your help, all.

what bass is it?!

 

[JBarz]

It’s the Shen 5’r. 7/8 42” scale spruce/willow. I’m having a hard time fighting the urge to get my tools out and just set it up best I can… I could make it playable, just not necessarily ‘magical’. Finding a time to drive 3 hrs to Nashville with 4 kids in school plus work and gig constraints is proving to be obnoxiously difficult. Randy is being super cool and accommodating, but every date we set I'm having to reschedule and push back because Im stupid overbooked. First world problems for the obsessive compulsive DIY’r with impulse control issues, lol.

I know some people have their beef with imported basses, but I’ve never played a Shen I didn’t like. I can’t wait to break this thing in. Check out how pretty it is: