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Double Bass Five string bass setup considerations

#23
I was lookin at the bass today and couldn’t resist —- went ahead and set it up. I modeled the setup after my NS La Scala 4 string. The way the fingerboard is shaped seemed like it wanted to be 10mm spaced at the nut and 1 inch at the bridge. Tomorrow I’ll get in there and fine tune everything, but after a long 8 hour day futzing with this thing, I’m pretty happy with it as it settles. The tension of the high e is balancing with the mitell 3/4 red Mitchell spiros just fine, but I have no idea how they’ll break in. Definitely notice the absence of the Marvin tailpiece (feels super stiff), will probably order one for the 5’r within the week.

I figure I can take it into the luthier if there’s anything I can’t seem to get right (nut curvature, etc), but as finely finished as these Shen fingerboards come, the initial setup work is just silly easy (relatively speaking, it’s still been a loooong day). Tomorrow will tell after it’s been under tension for an evening.

Good times.
 
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#24
Day after the rough cut setup:

I’m very happy with the instrument. There are little setup things to tweak just a metric C.H. or two. Also, the bridge and nut need to be finished off all pretty… but it’s pretty much “there”.

I’m not in love with the difference in arco response between the top E obligato and A spirocore, but I can cross that bridge later. I am glad I took care of all the DIY setup stuff first myself before taking it in. This way it has some time to settle before the super fine tuning and will hopefully save some time (&$).
The arco curve is workable, but I definitely want to get a pro to go in there and plane in more if possible. It came out to 42” on the nose. My other bass is 41.25” and am debating a false nut (outside of my skill set).
Other than lacking a rabbath endpin, it’s pretty on point for my goals and ambitions.
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oh, and I set the action at adjuster’s lowest setting to (measured from end of fingerboard) : E 3mm A 3.5mm D 4mm G 4mm C 5mm

… the E might could come down juuuuuuuust a hair, but I’m going to leave be for now.
 
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#26
Thanks.

Darn Obligato high E already snapped. What crappy fragile strings! I contacted Thomastic, Pirastro, and Aquila (@Mimmo ) if anyone would manufacture (or retrofit an existing cello string) a Spirocore/Perpetual/‘red springs metal’ style high E string. Anyone else have any bright ideas as to what I could substitute?
 
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#27
Auch high pitched strings for the long scale are problematic. The core needs to take the full tension, the windings only make the strings heavier for higher tension.

If you can live with it, some boutique gut manufacturers would be able to make a plain gut high E for you.

A monofiber unwrapped nylon string is possible, but not bowable and any other string is wound where mass goes into the winding, taking that mass away from the core, so it might break easier.

I had high C strings break (Super Sensitive Supreme), Obligato (with a too narrow nut slot) and some other strings after the new nut was too narrow, but hardly visible.

So don’t blame the string manufacturers too much, what you want is very unusual and highly problematic in physics.

I don’t know where the string was broken. Maybe you can check your nut slot and widen it if needed (but not deepen it!) and knot the string together. Not easy with a synthetic core string, but I have done it and described it here on Talkbass. Maybe you need to raise the string a bit towards the nut by knotting something at the ball end.

These high strings often need to have a thinner core than the regular set, so they are more sensitive to breakage.
 
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#28
A gut high E would be great. I’ve contacted every string maker I can think of. One guy makes custom flat wounds for EB but can make up to a 60” string any gauge. The string calculator I found online seems like .024 might be the sweet spot to get around 63lbs of tension for a E3 42” scale length. Does that sound reasonable?
 
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#29
JBarz said:
A gut high E would be great. I’ve contacted every string maker I can think of. One guy makes custom flat wounds for EB but can make up to a 60” string any gauge. The string calculator I found online seems like .024 might be the sweet spot to get around 63lbs of tension for a E3 42” scale length. Does that sound reasonable?
Click to expand...
The gut manufacturer knows his stuff best to calculate the diameter. They need to know vibrating string length, open string pitch, tuning (like a’=440 Hz, cannot remember the US octave naming) and requested tension.
The diameter depends on the type of gut used (probably sheep) and even though all calculations made, it may differ a bit in tension as it is a natural material with variations.

I might be able to calculate an approximate diameter tomorrow if you can tell me which tension you have on the A below the E.
I take my Efrano high C as a basis and scale that to string length, pitch and tension.
But it might take a while as I may need new formulas, which are only applicable to uniform density strings like plain gut or plain monofiber synthetic strings.
And no guarantee that the formula is correct, I do the mathematical transformation by hand/head.
 
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#31
Ahh, I’ve had success. Aiming at E3, 42” scale length, roughly 63 lbs of tension, and 1/4”-1/2” string movement. I found this guy and have been discussing the problem with him today - he seems pretty brilliant: octave4plus.com . He makes custom flatwound strings for crazy electric bass guitars with a ton of extra strings. Fortunately, he can make up to 60” strings which might just serve my needs perfectly. We’re going to start with .018” gauge flats aimed to extend the Red Mitchel Spirocore set. I’m also talking to the Gamut gut guys about an A and E string. For now — patience. (I’m very excited!)
 
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#33
I figure it’ll be bright, for sure, but for under $100, it’ll make a solid backup to hang in the case if I find something I like more. I’m pretty sure I’m going to go with the Gamut plain gut A and E over the long term, but this bass is pretty dang dark. It might really balance out nicely with a super bright E3 string with silly low action… Only one way to know for sure…
 
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#34
Damion Dlugolecki, string maker, came through for the win with the plain gut : E3 27 gauge, and A2 40 gauge. I’m super excited, can’t wait!
 
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#36
Damion’s high E string came in yesterday. That man really knows his schtuff. Highly recommended. When I first put it on, I thought “oh no, this isn’t going to work - it’s far too ‘bright’ and ‘scratchy’, especially under the bow”. But, this morning the string seems to have mellowed out a little bit, giving me a lot of hope for this one. From the little bit of reading I’ve done on gut strings in the violin forums, I’m to understand it takes about 2 weeks for thinner gut strings to reach their happy place. Once I get some facility on this instrument and tuning, I’ll post a little video. The chordal potential is very neat, indeed, but much practice is going to be in order before it’s ’performance ready’.
 
#38
DoubleMIDI said:
Sorry, I was too busy to calculate my stuff, but it seems that it is no longer needed.
If you think the gut E is too different from your other strings you might think about getting a gut A too.

Have fun!
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Fun is definitely being had, for sure! Yep, I’ve already got a matching high A string from Damien in the post. Gut makes a lot of sense up there on the top two strings of this axe. When trying to get this chordal stuff to speak, my poor stretched out paws are being pushed to their limits trying to sometimes hold two strings down with just my pinky finger, lol. Thanks again for your help!
 
#39
One more quick setup question, if I may:

I’ve been cutting my bridges the past couple times in the A Schnitzer tradition, as illustrated in his new book and my glorious La Scala 4 string. Usually 6mm is the go-to bridge tip thickness — would it stand to reason that a 5 string should be maybe a little beefier, like 7mm?

Taking off that extra millimeter of bridge material might translate into perceived ‘brightness’ and ‘edge’, right?

I’m going to take the bridge down today or tomorrow, clean it up, and carve in all the ornamental stuff, but just wanted to double check with the luthier wisdom hivemind before messing with a good thing.
 
#40
JBarz said:
One more quick setup question, if I may:

I’ve been cutting my bridges the past couple times in the A Schnitzer tradition, as illustrated in his new book and my glorious La Scala 4 string. Usually 6mm is the go-to bridge tip thickness — would it stand to reason that a 5 string should be maybe a little beefier, like 7mm?

Taking off that extra millimeter of bridge material might translate into perceived ‘brightness’ and ‘edge’, right?

I’m going to take the bridge down today or tomorrow, clean it up, and carve in all the ornamental stuff, but just wanted to double check with the luthier wisdom hivemind before messing with a good thing.
Click to expand...

I am no luthier but you can always take material off. It's not always so easy to put it back on.
 
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