Flatwound player looking for natural, low gain grit/bloom.... Blackberry?

[five7]

These work for me.

 

[johnk_10]

surprisingly, and for a very low price, i found the Donner Dumbal to sound great as a low gainer with my Mustang bass with flats. it was only $39.99 with free shipping on Amazon.

 

[Bastijnv]

GREAT thread. I'v got almost the same setup as OP. My three main basses have flats on it (TI flats, Chromes and GHS precision flats). I also have the Tech 21 VT bass almost always on, love the character, but also don't like the drive. I like to have moderate to heavy dirt in my metalband but find my sound to turn muddy quite quickly. I don't use a pick, so I use the character button on the VT bass to add brightness and feed that into a Alpha/Omega (the latter is also surpisingly usefull at low gain settings). Although this gets me the agressive sound I want, I'm struggling with the muddiness, which is mostly contributed to a combination of flats, the lows being affected with dirt as well, and the dry signal being present as well I guess. But I'm not an audio engineer whatsoever.

Frequency splitting seams to be the answer according to the internet. So after eyeballling the KMA Tyler for a while, but being put off by the size, I finally went with the forementioned Great Eastern FX XO. I only received it yesterday, but my first impressions are very positive. Immediatly I used the 'proven metal setup' with heavy compression on the low freqs (Pigtronix Bass Philosopher, but I guess any comp will do) and running the high freqs thru the VT Bass/ TC Electronic Spark/ Alpha/Omega. The muddyness of the sound is gone, the lows stay in pristine condition and the crossover freq button get me a nice touch of OD when I allow the mids to also be affected by the drives, our a very clanky but defined metal sound when I only allow higher freqs to pass thru the drives. Obviously I still have to do a lot of experimenting, but the crossover adds a new dimension to my dirt pedals. Also with low gain settings, the crossover gives me the option to add just a bit of drive to the upper freqs. Someone mentioned the XO is the best gift you can buy for your pedals, and so far, I agree.

(There are also other options for frequency splitting, the Darkglass X7, The Tech 21 dUg, YYZ and the opcoming XB driver to name a few. I went for the XO because of the price, small form and the abillity to craft a sound with the pedals I already own)

 

[SaucyJackBass]

I have used a Bearfoot Blueberry for many years and I occasionally try other pedals to see if I like them better but so far I am still using the Blueberry. I will say that the distortion section of my Genzer Magellan is pretty sweet so the Genzler pre amp pedal might be an option.

Agree, can not beat the Bearfoot for ability to dial in the dirt you want.

 

[Nekomata]

I like the One Control Blackberry a lot, for some always-on grit and je ne sais quoi. Although I play mostly roundwound strings, I think the OCBB works nicely with flats, too.

 

[thedovewarlord]

Thank you for more elaborate and informative posts, suggestions everyone. My next step is to try what I can find. I know a shop or two that may have a several of these choices on hand, it's just a matter of finding time. II will bring one of my basses with me since it's so uncommon to find a bass in a store with flats. Not to go off on a tangent, but being a player who prefers flats, casual bass-window-shopping is a fun adventure but so often as Im playing a bass in a store, I'm imagining how much better that bass would be if had a nice set of chromes, dont get me wrong, most basses sound great with the rounds also, I mean in my hands I play less confidently (comfortably) with the rounds, showing delays or other effects pedals you can use your imagination, but generally dirt/fuzz/od etc the results are drastic when you demo a pedal on a similar bass, but rounds vs a set of 5 year old chromes.... back to the subject at hand...

Apologize if I dont reply to every single post, but appreciate the generosity of replies (keep them coming!)

GREAT thread. I'v got almost the same setup as OP. My three main basses have flats on it (TI flats, Chromes and GHS precision flats). I also have the Tech 21 VT bass almost always on, love the character, but also don't like the drive. I like to have moderate to heavy dirt in my metalband but find my sound to turn muddy quite quickly. I don't use a pick, so I use the character button on the VT bass to add brightness and feed that into a Alpha/Omega (the latter is also surpisingly usefull at low gain settings). Although this gets me the agressive sound I want, I'm struggling with the muddiness, which is mostly contributed to a combination of flats, the lows being affected with dirt as well, and the dry signal being present as well I guess. But I'm not an audio engineer whatsoever.

Frequency splitting seams to be the answer according to the internet. So after eyeballling the KMA Tyler for a while, but being put off by the size, I finally went with the forementioned Great Eastern FX XO. I only received it yesterday, but my first impressions are very positive. Immediatly I used the 'proven metal setup' with heavy compression on the low freqs (Pigtronix Bass Philosopher, but I guess any comp will do) and running the high freqs thru the VT Bass/ TC Electronic Spark/ Alpha/Omega. The muddyness of the sound is gone, the lows stay in pristine condition and the crossover freq button get me a nice touch of OD when I allow the mids to also be affected by the drives, our a very clanky but defined metal sound when I only allow higher freqs to pass thru the drives. Obviously I still have to do a lot of experimenting, but the crossover adds a new dimension to my dirt pedals. Also with low gain settings, the crossover gives me the option to add just a bit of drive to the upper freqs. Someone mentioned the XO is the best gift you can buy for your pedals, and so far, I agree.

(There are also other options for frequency splitting, the Darkglass X7, The Tech 21 dUg, YYZ and the opcoming XB driver to name a few. I went for the XO because of the price, small form and the abillity to craft a sound with the pedals I already own)

Thank you for the reply, I'm not really concerned with isolating a frequency range per se and dont really want to get into signal splitting, my Alpha/Omega is a great aggressive option as well, it doesn't quite get what I am looking for at the low gain setting. The blend knob is useful at high gain so you can keep your low-end and still have the ferocious attack. I know some do, but I personally dont particularly want the sound of a clean bass with and added layer of buzzing high freq distortion, that sounds very specific and can achieve that with the Darkglass.

What I liked about the Blueberry was, the grit was across entire freq range in a natural and creamy way.

surprisingly, and for a very low price, i found the Donner Dumbal to sound great as a low gainer with my Mustang bass with flats. it was only $39.99 with free shipping on Amazon.

I need to check that, I have their chorus and it is a great sounding pedal and was super cheap.

↑ This is a great list. The Xotic BB is very underrated. I would add Walrus Ages. In modes 1-2 you'll get what you're looking for plus even more clipping options in modes 3-5. I have a feeling the Walrus 385+ drive would be great with flats, but I haven't gotten around to acquiring one yet.

I'd love to try the Xotic. The shop I plan to visit has all the Walrus pedals in stock, so I plan to spend plenty of time with that brand and several pedals.

A couple jazz basses with flats in this demo

One in the beginning and two at the end

Checking this out now! this pedal is highly popular and was suggested by plenty of folks, I need to try it fo'sho'

I think one of these cuts is flatwounds

The Darkglass Vintage is definitely on my list!

How about the Ampeg Scrambler?

I tried that pedal years ago when Ampeg released those pedals, did not like it at the time but bought their chorus (Liquifier) that same day, still have it. If I see it I will definitely give it another try since my needs and ears are always evolving.


Thanks everyone!

 

[chiphaleonbass]

Lately been using the Greer Lightspeed for what you're describing, but the Pork Loin and v1 Walrus 385 can get you there. Damnation MBD is a great choice as well; there's really so many that add that saturation to the flats sound. Every Strymon Deco demo I've seen makes me think that pedal is next for me to try to do the same thing

 

[sunbeast]

For several years I used a Darkglass Vintage for this (I had all the different iterations and ended up going back to the original smaller non-deluxe version). These days I'm really digging the Blackstone Mosfet. Both pedals tighten the sound up which is vital for me and flats for most of the sounds I'm looking for. The Blackstone is more transparent, brighter, more touch-sensitive, and has a wider gain range (from no audible clipping to an almost fuzz sound). The Darkglass might add a bit more low-mid punch, and while it adds more of its own character, the character it does add fits really nicely in a mix with a pleasant amount of inherent compression and mid-crunch. The Blackstone can stick out more or be tamed depending on settings

 

[Evan J]

For several years I used a Darkglass Vintage for this (I had all the different iterations and ended up going back to the original smaller non-deluxe version). These days I'm really digging the Blackstone Mosfet. Both pedals tighten the sound up which is vital for me and flats for most of the sounds I'm looking for. The Blackstone is more transparent, brighter, more touch-sensitive, and has a wider gain range (from no audible clipping to an almost fuzz sound). The Darkglass might add a bit more low-mid punch, and while it adds more of its own character, the character it does add fits really nicely in a mix with a pleasant amount of inherent compression and mid-crunch. The Blackstone can stick out more or be tamed depending on settings

How does the Blackstone do at keeping low end in tact?

 

[sunbeast]

How does the Blackstone do at keeping low end in tact?

Pretty good IMO, much like the Darkglass Vintage (which I never use the clean Blend on FWIW). Like most drive pedals, the more gain you add the more mids (which can overpower the lows after a point), but the tone control is a mid-scoop that can counter that effect without making the tone too dark which is clever. I need to grab some clips of it as there I believe is only one bass demo up on YouTube thus far (it is a decent demo though!). A few TBers I trust have recommended the Blackstone over the years and the Omega side of the Darkglass Alpha-Omega is reportedly based on it (though the Omega is less-tweakable and relatively higher-gain) which is why I gave it a chance, but it has mostly flown under the radar in the bass world it seems.

 

[thedovewarlord]

Pretty good IMO, much like the Darkglass Vintage (which I never use the clean Blend on FWIW). Like most drive pedals, the more gain you add the more mids (which can overpower the lows after a point), but the tone control is a mid-scoop that can counter that effect without making the tone too dark which is clever. I need to grab some clips of it as there I believe is only one bass demo up on YouTube thus far (it is a decent demo though!). A few TBers I trust have recommended the Blackstone over the years and the Omega side of the Darkglass Alpha-Omega is reportedly based on it (though the Omega is less-tweakable and relatively higher-gain) which is why I gave it a chance, but it has mostly flown under the radar in the bass world it seems.

Can anyone possibly explain what sets a good low gain pedal apart and workable on flat wounds.

That's the [art I have trouble with, I keep trying & buying pedals that sound better on rounds but not well on my chromes.

 

[sunbeast]

Can anyone possibly explain what sets a good low gain pedal apart and workable on flat wounds.

That's the [art I have trouble with, I keep trying & buying pedals that sound better on rounds but not well on my chromes.

Well this stuff is all subjective, but I can give my take! For me a good low-gain overdrive is one with a pretty good chunk at the bottom of the Gain control that sounds totally clean, which allows me to hit the sweet-spot of where playing quietly keeps a perceptibly clean sound while digging in brings out some dirt. Also pedals that hit that dirty point in a graceful way rather than the sort of "on-off" nature of some clipping circuits.

For me personally when playing with flatwounds, I like a drive that can bring out some upper harmonic information that the strings themselves may not have in abundance- without that extra edge a drive can often just sound like compression in a mix with flatwounds. On the other end, I prefer a drive that doesn't get too congested in the lows or low-midrange with flatwounds- those strings tend to already have plenty of that part of the frequency range, and any more can just cause a decrease in articulation and punch. Both of the pedals I mentioned above do both of these tricks in different ways- the Darkglass Vintage tightens the lowest lows which brings out a nice punch in the low-mids, and also adds a nice peak in the high-mids with the settings I generally use. The Blackstone Mosfet also tightens up the lowest lows and adds a more wide-range boost in the high-mods and treble (again, how I set it- it can be made to be darker or even mid-scooped if wanted).

I spent many years playing through tube amps almost exclusively, and part of what good tube bass amps do well (at least within reasonable limits) is clip the entire bass signal without harshness. So tube amps with good low-end headroom are my ideal reference (and of course what a lot of overdrive pedals are attempting to emulate). Many high-wattage tube bass amps tend to tighten up in the sub-lows as they reach the capacity of what the parts are able to maintain. My favorite overdrive pedals tend to do the same in lieu of farting out, which usually means there is some sort of mild high-passing in the pedal cutting some amount of the deep bass from hitting the clipping circuit. A lot of people are turned off by the idea of a bass drive pedal that cuts lows going into the drive circuit, but I would wager that most if not all of the favorite bass drives on Talkbass do this to some degree. Drives that send too much low-end into the clipping circuit tend to sound like fuzz pedals pretty quick, lacking dynamics/touch-sensitivity and often times also lacking much articulation.

That's my quick take!

 

[thedovewarlord]

Well this stuff is all subjective, but I can give my take! For me a good low-gain overdrive is one with a pretty good chunk at the bottom of the Gain control that sounds totally clean, which allows me to hit the sweet-spot of where playing quietly keeps a perceptibly clean sound while digging in brings out some dirt. Also pedals that hit that dirty point in a graceful way rather than the sort of "on-off" nature of some clipping circuits.

For me personally when playing with flatwounds, I like a drive that can bring out some upper harmonic information that the strings themselves may not have in abundance- without that extra edge a drive can often just sound like compression in a mix with flatwounds. On the other end, I prefer a drive that doesn't get too congested in the lows or low-midrange with flatwounds- those strings tend to already have plenty of that part of the frequency range, and any more can just cause a decrease in articulation and punch. Both of the pedals I mentioned above do both of these tricks in different ways- the Darkglass Vintage tightens the lowest lows which brings out a nice punch in the low-mids, and also adds a nice peak in the high-mids with the settings I generally use. The Blackstone Mosfet also tightens up the lowest lows and adds a more wide-range boost in the high-mods and treble (again, how I set it- it can be made to be darker or even mid-scooped if wanted).

I spent many years playing through tube amps almost exclusively, and part of what good tube bass amps do well (at least within reasonable limits) is clip the entire bass signal without harshness. So tube amps with good low-end headroom are my ideal reference (and of course what a lot of overdrive pedals are attempting to emulate). Many high-wattage tube bass amps tend to tighten up in the sub-lows as they reach the capacity of what the parts are able to maintain. My favorite overdrive pedals tend to do the same in lieu of farting out, which usually means there is some sort of mild high-passing in the pedal cutting some amount of the deep bass from hitting the clipping circuit. A lot of people are turned off by the idea of a bass drive pedal that cuts lows going into the drive circuit, but I would wager that most if not all of the favorite bass drives on Talkbass do this to some degree. Drives that send too much low-end into the clipping circuit tend to sound like fuzz pedals pretty quick, lacking dynamics/touch-sensitivity and often times also lacking much articulation.

That's my quick take!

tremendous explanation. Bravo to you (and also to everyone that replied).

Are you planning to post clips of the Vintage Microbes or Blackstone with flatwounds? I hope I didn't misread that. Tthat, would be great to hear.

 

[jmmyoh]

Just get a broughton scorpion and save some time.

 

[johnk_10]

IMO, the Blacksone is pretty nice but it wouldn't be at the top of my list.

 

[HelpImaRock]

I run my Mesa D350 slightly dirty. When playing through backlined amps, I get a similar sound from my Tech 21 Para Driver. I play a Guild Starfire and Squier Mustang with LaBella LTFs. YMMV.

 

[sunbeast]

IMO, the Blacksone is pretty nice but it wouldn't be at the top of my list.

Of course it's all subjective- as I recall you also aren't a fan of the Darkglass Vintage, which has been a longtime fave of mine with flatwound-equipped basses.

What about the DCX makes it work so well with flatwounds for you? What else would you recommend for a flatwound player?

 

[johnk_10]

Of course it's all subjective- as I recall you also aren't a fan of the Darkglass Vintage, which has been a longtime fave of mine with flatwound-equipped basses.

What about the DCX makes it work so well with flatwounds for you? What else would you recommend for a flatwound player?

i actually own and like the DG Vintage (small version). as far as the DCX. it works great with rounds and flats and is probably my favorite overdrive/preamp out of all of my pedals. it has a more natural sounding overdrive with a flexible eq. i also built a pedal of my own that i sometimes use instead of it called the germanium bass OD.

 

[sunbeast]

i actually own and like the DG Vintage (small version). as far as the DCX. it works great with rounds and flats and is probably my favorite overdrive/preamp out of all of my pedals. it has a more natural sounding overdrive with a flexible eq. i also built a pedal of my own that i sometimes use instead of it called the germanium bass OD.

Well I know in the past you replied to suggestions of the Vintage on TB multiple times saying how you specifically didn't like it when you first had it (probably way back when the Fairfield Barbershop was the OD de jour around here) and I always disagreed with your take but of course opinions change!

I haven't been impressed by the DCX clips I've heard (for my tastes), but I'll probably try one if I can ever find one under $200. The Blackstone Mosfet with the internal treble clipping trim turned up and internal gain trim turned down is currently doing exactly what I want for low-gain sounds in a way that few other drives have for me- especially the touch-sensitivity and the high-mid edge I can get when digging in. The way the DCX darkens as you clip it harder is actually the opposite of what I want at least at the low-gain side- I like being able to play a smooth soft line then dig in for more top-end bite alongside the grit. I also set the second channel (with the internal bass-cut capacitor removed) as a mild fuzz and it works great for that (it has dethroned my Russian Muff for that low-gain fuzz/distortion)

 

[Evan J]

The way the DCX darkens as you clip it harder is actually the opposite of what I want at least at the low-gain side- I like being able to play a smooth soft line then dig in for more top-end bite alongside the grit.

This is true in EQ mode, but in drive mode the adaptive circuitry turns off. So it won't darken as you dig in on that side. And that side also has a wide gain range to play with.

However, the DCX does lean vintage. So if you're looking for modern grindy top end, it's probably not the vibe.