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Double Bass Flying fingers

Sep 24, 2011
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Hi all

looking for advice/videos of exercises (inclusive of Method books) where I can practice anchoring fingers down so that passages and or scales require the least amount of lifting fingers off fingerboard. To be clear, currently I am experimenting with playing a G scale, on the G string, where in 1st position, where for the first 3 notes (g, a, b) my index finger stays (lightly) on the a note when I play the b note. Not sure if I am on the right track!!

Regards to all.
 
Hi Andy,

Not sure this’ll help, but this video lesson by Dennis Whittaker seems to address what to do with unused fingers and how to make sure they remain as relaxed as possible. I’ve tried it a few times and it’s a bit of a finger (or maybe mental?) twister, so definitely start slow.
 
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This is best dealt with by "reading your body" and not sheet music. The eyes need to be used for your whole practice session. You need a period of memorized exercises so you can take stock of how your body is working.
The root of the issue has to do with the power of music over human beings as well the urges people have to dance socially.
There was an article in Double Bassist years ago called "choreographing the hands". This is a great analogy. A pro dancer has to make the moves they are given and hit their marks without extraneous movement. They have to shut down the natural urges music brings out of the body.

Silent left hand practice, thinking of just carrying out a given task rather than being musical can help.
It gets into other issues like shifts and other movements that often need to be "out of rhythm" with the music you are trying to get played.


Hi all

looking for advice/videos of exercises (inclusive of Method books) where I can practice anchoring fingers down so that passages and or scales require the least amount of lifting fingers off fingerboard. To be clear, currently I am experimenting with playing a G scale, on the G string, where in 1st position, where for the first 3 notes (g, a, b) my index finger stays (lightly) on the a note when I play the b note. Not sure if I am on the right track!!

Regards to all.
 
Hi Andy,

Not sure this’ll help, but this video lesson by Dennis Whittaker seems to address what to do with unused fingers and how to make sure they remain as relaxed as possible. I’ve tried it a few times and it’s a bit of a finger (or maybe mental?) twister, so definitely start slow.


IMHO I scanned through the video and do not agree. YMMV if course.

IMHO a player should distinguish between vibrato and non-vibrato technique. If you are playing vibrato then only one finger is stopped.

If you are not using vibrato the previous fingers apply pressure to help each success finger. When you use just the pinkie, the muscles associated with the pinkie have to do all of the work. When you use all of your fingers to help, the pinkie does not have to work so hard.

IMHO, Rather than letting fingers rest alternately, the key is to play with the absolute minimum pressure necessary to stop the string. The challenging part is to separate the amount of pressure you use for stopping the note from the amount of pressure you use to play dynamics with your right hand. The natural tendency for most people is to clench harder with the left hand if more strength is used with the right hand. You must specifically practice to apply this strength independently until you can do it without thinking. Then you will likely have to perform occasional maintenance practice, or you may fall back on bad habits.

Also his fingers appear to actually be rising pretty high over the finger board IMHO. (He may be doing this so you can see what he is doing) This would acceptable if he were playing vibrato, but when playing without vibrato I prefer to keep the fingers as close to the string as possible.

It takes time and much practice to master left hand technique. There must be focus on playing efficiently and with minimal effort. This is independent of your other studies. When one first learns to play the hands tend to cramp. I believe this is partly because the player is using muscles that have not developed. But it is also because the player has not developed the fine motor skills to only use the necessary muscles independently.

Muscles are grouped in pairs. Retractors close the joint and extensors open the joint. Inexperienced players tend to clench and engage both muscles against one another, rather than just applying the minimum pressure necessary with the retractor to hold down the string. Of course this is a gross over simplification, but hopefully you get the idea. Rather than clenching, one needs to learn to relax the hand and use just enough pressure to stop the strings properly.

I think this video is pretty decent
 
FWIW, Dennis addresses this in the video.

Yes I agree. I believe he infers keeping the fingers arched and close to the strings starting around 4:00 in the video, but he never really demonstrates it. When he does the exercises, his fingers seem to be flailing; at what I consider an excessive distance. But, he may be demonstrating bad technique in order to make it clear when he is stopping the strings.

Honestly I don't see the point in the exercise :wacky: :bag:. Music is generally not structured in regular patterns where one could/would stop notes a certain fixed rhythmic interval before the notes are played. Perhaps the intent is to practice a structured exercise that forces one to focus more on the independent finger movement in the left hand, and one would not actually apply this technique to musical performance. In other words it's intended to teach the necessary left hand motor skills, and independence between the left and right hand.
 


I’m fairly new to this instrument, but I’ll put my thoughts in anyway.

There’s an exercise in the video above from Lyric Opera bassist Andrew Anderson that may help.

Regarding the Dennis Whittaker video, if I remember right, it’s more about minimizing tension than specifically fixing “flying fingers”. The exercise looks pretty great though for building awareness of the hand, something that would likely improve finger height.

@Wasnex mentioned a couple things that I’d like to chime in on. First, there are two types of vibrato that I’ve been taught. One, which is more soloistic, has the player keep only the vibrating finger on the board. The other, which is used in section playing, has the player keep all lower fingers down. This latter variety is narrower as a result.

The other point is regarding the role of lower fingers. I think the approach advocating strong pressure from lower fingers is becoming outdated. If I remember correctly this is covered in David Allen Moore’s “Fractal Fingering” course on Discover Double Bass. Whittaker seems to be of a like mind, where the lower fingers are in place above their note but not applying pressure.

Another thing to consider is what you might call “finger action”. There are two basic types that I’ve come across: low/minimal movement and hammer & pluck. Each has their place and the finger height will vary.

Finally, maybe @Wasnex could talk a little more about “applying the minimum pressure necessary”. I have found that the minimum pressure required to get a note to sound is very different from the actual pressure required to get a good singing tone (not to say that this is always the sound you want). My limited experience suggests that generally the string should be set pretty heavily into the fingerboard and whether I am applying pressure from 12 o’clock on the string or 1 o’clock (the fingers are on both the string and the board here) seems a crucial consideration as well, with the tone becoming much clearer at 1 o’clock.
 
IMHO a player should distinguish between vibrato and non-vibrato technique. If you are playing vibrato then only one finger is stopped.

True.

If you are not using vibrato the previous fingers apply pressure to help each success finger. When you use just the pinkie, the muscles associated with the pinkie have to do all of the work. When you use all of your fingers to help, the pinkie does not have to work so hard.

The other option, which is admittedly a more advanced technique (though I can't help but wonder if it should be thought of this way), is to utilize a technique where every note is stopped as though the note might use vibrato. This keeps the hand relaxed and puts the onus for placing the finger in the correct place on the arm/shoulder/core rather than the very limited lateral movement of the fingers.

There are advantages to this approach. The lateral motion of the fingers is a function of the extensor tendons rather than the flexor; to check this, relax your hand with the palm up and fingers naturally curled facing your face - notice that in this position it is nearly impossible to move the fingers laterally without them also trying to extend (information on hand biomechanics can be found Invalid Link Removed).

Since the lateral motions that we can perform (excluding the thumb, of course) are tied to the extensor mechanism, spreading the hand while simultaneously pressing down on the string (flexor function) puts that mechanism of the hand in some degree of conflict or tension with itself.

So in short, without meaning to impugn traditional pedagogy, I'm not sure that trying to keep the 1st finger exactly in place while reaching for a whole step with the 4th finger is the best practice for hand and forearm health; this is especially noticeable in the lowest positions, and even more so on the lower strings.

IMHO, Rather than letting fingers rest alternately, the key is to play with the absolute minimum pressure necessary to stop the string.

Agree, with the caveat that it's better to have slightly too much pressure on the stop than slightly too little, so in general I try to err on that side because doing so doesn't change the sound. I've also been to enough Hal Robinson workshops to know that he routinely catches students using too little pressure. He has a demonstration he does where a student bows a note and fingers it, then he fingers the same note while the student bows it. The look on everyone's face when they hear the difference is a beautiful thing to watch every single time!

The challenging part is to separate the amount of pressure you use for stopping the note from the amount of pressure you use to play dynamics with your right hand. The natural tendency for most people is to clench harder with the left hand if more strength is used with the right hand. You must specifically practice to apply this strength independently until you can do it without thinking.

Completely agree with this. A full stop is a good stop, and a weak/incomplete stop is a bad stop. Unless the player is going for some special effect involving a cracked stop sound, the left hand should be making full stops regardless of what the right hand is doing!
 
I am going to get his book, this series is really great and informative for all kinds of issues. Dennis is beautiful player. I saw him do some bass duets in Houston, his sound was incredible and his time was so powerful, it is classical bass time, but with a more pronounced "feel" than I've heard before, if that makes sense.

Hi Andy,

Not sure this’ll help, but this video lesson by Dennis Whittaker seems to address what to do with unused fingers and how to make sure they remain as relaxed as possible. I’ve tried it a few times and it’s a bit of a finger (or maybe mental?) twister, so definitely start slow.
 


I’m fairly new to this instrument, but I’ll put my thoughts in anyway.

There’s an exercise in the video above from Lyric Opera bassist Andrew Anderson that may help.

Regarding the Dennis Whittaker video, if I remember right, it’s more about minimizing tension than specifically fixing “flying fingers”. The exercise looks pretty great though for building awareness of the hand, something that would likely improve finger height.

@Wasnex mentioned a couple things that I’d like to chime in on. First, there are two types of vibrato that I’ve been taught. One, which is more soloistic, has the player keep only the vibrating finger on the board. The other, which is used in section playing, has the player keep all lower fingers down. This latter variety is narrower as a result.

The other point is regarding the role of lower fingers. I think the approach advocating strong pressure from lower fingers is becoming outdated. If I remember correctly this is covered in David Allen Moore’s “Fractal Fingering” course on Discover Double Bass. Whittaker seems to be of a like mind, where the lower fingers are in place above their note but not applying pressure.

Another thing to consider is what you might call “finger action”. There are two basic types that I’ve come across: low/minimal movement and hammer & pluck. Each has their place and the finger height will vary.

Finally, maybe @Wasnex could talk a little more about “applying the minimum pressure necessary”. I have found that the minimum pressure required to get a note to sound is very different from the actual pressure required to get a good singing tone (not to say that this is always the sound you want). My limited experience suggests that generally the string should be set pretty heavily into the fingerboard and whether I am applying pressure from 12 o’clock on the string or 1 o’clock (the fingers are on both the string and the board here) seems a crucial consideration as well, with the tone becoming much clearer at 1 o’clock.


I have not been taught a vibrato technique where multiple fingers would apply pressure. A gentle vibrato can be achieved with unstopped fingers resting lightly on the strings and the hand pivoting on the stopped finger. I believe a more energetic vibrato requires some lifting of the unstopped fingers and also some reshaping of the hand. I see this as more of a progression rather than two separate techniques, but nothing wrong with looking closer.

IMHO when you place successive fingers, the previous fingers stay there to help; that does not entail they continue pressing with the same pressure. Use whatever pressure minimizes hand stress. There is too much variation to explain every nuance, but hopefully you get the concept. I.E. modulate the pressure across your fingers to distribute the load. The stopped note will require the most pressure.

When I say use the minimum amount of pressure...(required for good tone) is assumed. I would not recommend anyone plays with bad tone.
 
I don't think "relaxed" hand ideas are helpful when someone is having trouble holding still. The old "hold the position" is best. Being able to hold the position is a very important skill and can't be negated by relaxed hand rhetoric.

Once you are able to hold still, things like relaxing the hand, etc. need to first consider the music you are playing. If it is well mapped out, classical music, it is something to consider. It could even entertained for Jazz playing that is generally flowing and is unlikely to change directions in any "jarring" sort of way.
Also, how much repetition is involved, how much is "supportive" work vs. "equal partner" playing.

I find holding the position to be energy well spent in my work. People doing very long rehearsals or concerts with a lot of set, heavy playing might find relaxing very valuable.
 
The other option, which is admittedly a more advanced technique (though I can't help but wonder if it should be thought of this way), is to utilize a technique where every note is stopped as though the note might use vibrato.
I believe the index and middle finger have approximately the same strength. The ring finger and the little finger are significantly weaker. The idea of keeping the fingers down is so the strong fingers can help the weaker fingers. When I play a lot of energetic vibrato sections, it tends to overtax my hand, especially when the 4th finger is frequently used. I could be wrong but I believe the same would happen if I played every note as if I might use an energetic vibrato. The pinkie would have to exert more force instead of having other fingers share the load and it would be overexerted.

Also there is the matter of coordination. The previous finger must stay down until the next note is fully stopped. Other wise the string bounces up and down and there is even more force to contend with.

Conceptually what I described in my last post is somewhat similar. The previous fingers release some of the pressure after you stop the next note, but they do not necessarily lift off the string. Also I don't necessarily see the need to keep you 1st finger exactly in position as you reach for whole step with the 4th finger. We may be on the same page.

IMHO I believe the tempo in which notes are played is a significant factor. When you are playing fast, you have less ability and need to modulate pressure between fingers.
 
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Another related video that touches on some of the different ideas we have discussed. Nice close ups of the fingering hand. Although he doesn't discuss it, he demonstrates vibrato with all fingers on the string.
 
I would suggest getting control of flying fingers before actively working on vibrato!

I agree. In this particular video I don't think he intentionally played vibrato. IMHO it's fairly hard to limit your technique to what you are demonstrating, rather than playing fluidly like you normally would, so people unintentionally break form in teaching demos all the time.

I only brought it up as we had discussed using different hand shapes for vibrato earlier in the thread.

Also I think this video does a really good job of showing just how close to string the fingers should remain...or least it is consistent with my playing style ;).
 
You can actually get a lot of effective practice on this while away from the bass. As discussed it's not a matter of strength but of mental coordination and habit. A relaxed yet active hand, using the minimum pressure for good tone, is essential.

Place your hand in a neutral arched shape on a table top. Practice lifting them independently. Do it in different orders. Do it slower and faster. Practice lifting only your first and third finger together. Only your second and fourth. Tap fun little patterns with each finger and different combinations of fingers. etc. Every combination and pattern you can think of.

Then do the same things, applying pressure independently instead of lifting them.

Then when you get back to the bass you will be more conscientious of which fingers are doing what and why.
 
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I believe the index and middle finger have approximately the same strength. The ring finger and the little finger are significantly weaker. The idea of keeping the fingers down is so the strong fingers can help the weaker fingers.

I don't deny that this is the standard pedagogical reasoning. But for the sort of technique I'm talking about, the whole idea of "strong fingers" and "weak fingers" is superseded by "any finger as a basic hook supported by the entire arm and core". The whole point is to change the paradigm from move the fingers up and down and side to side to let the fingers stay as relaxed as possible and move them into place using the wrist, elbow, and shoulder. This is currently considered an advanced concept - like thumb position used to be - but I'm wondering if it actually should be considered and introduced sooner as a basic aspirational goal.

When I play a lot of energetic vibrato sections, it tends to overtax my hand, especially when the 4th finger is frequently used. I could be wrong but I believe the same would happen if I played every note as if I might use an energetic vibrato. The pinkie would have to exert more force instead of having other fingers share the load and it would be overexerted.

I don't think I would ever try to play vibrato with the pinky while holding the other fingers down. When I use vibrato with the 4th finger, the other fingers relax into the inside of it for support, and the weight of the arm hangs on the hook of the hand and vibrates around it.

Also there is the matter of coordination. The previous finger must stay down until the next note is fully stopped. Other wise the string bounces up and down and there is even more force to contend with.

In the technique I'm describing, the arm weight stays into the board and moves quickly to where the next finger placement is. It's Rufus Reid's concept of "hide the vomit", whose name amused me so much in a lesson about 20 years ago.

Also I don't necessarily see the need to keep you 1st finger exactly in position as you reach for whole step with the 4th finger. We may be on the same page.

On this we absolutely agree!
 
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