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Fodera Club Part XII

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#861
Okay gang, you know that generally I am very much a "cosmic cheerleader" here -- trying to explore all points of view as reasonable but please, please, please let's not seriously discuss tone based on hearing AJ's bass and rig through a YouTube Clip. Do we really want to end up judging possibly the least compressed / altered bass signal chain on the planet based on what it sounds like from a questionable recording subjected to all kinds of crappy compression algorithms being listened to on computer speakers?

Seriously, it is all about signal chain. I COMPLETELY agree with tone being a highly personal matter, but even listening to AJ on a CD is somewhat sad as 16 bit resolution bears no resemblance whatsoever to a pure analog signal. Has anyone ever heard a digital recording of a violin that sounds good? When I go to see music live a well-played violin is one of the most beautiful things I have yet heard...listen to the same player on a CD (even through a high-end system) and I find that it sounds strident and almost unbearable.

I am definitely not tiptoeing around AJ...I know him very well, we respect one another and definitely agree to disagree from time to time. There's no question that AJ's clean, pure, almost audiophile sound may not be to everyone's liking (I am solidly in the camp that admires his tone both now and on the Career Girl -- different times, different goals), but the clip that I just looked at bears no resemblance whatsoever to his tone...

Hopefully you all will take this in the spirit in which it is intended...really please do not confuse listening to YouTube clips with what anything actually sounds like...

J

Tom7 said:
The youtube clip that was shared illustrates it for me. Right here you hear strident, scratchy high notes, then Anthony runs down to an A played on the E string and holds it, and when it is low, it sounds oh so good. The contrast is quite remarkable.
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#862
And I find Tony to be wonderfully soulful and engaging...that's what makes this all fun!

Blue Blood said:
I haven't listened to the Hiromi/Jackson CD but own/love her other CD's. However, I hear no emotion in Tony Grey's playing. He's just a "finger wiggler" to me. Hiromi on the other hand can bring tears to my eyes with her playing. That may be the problem: Tony in direct comparison to such a soulful player as Hiromi just seems soul-less.
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#863
Ebony, Indian Rosewood, Pau Ferro, and Macassar Ebony are all no-charge options. Of course we still use Ebony!

Cheers,

J

pnchad said:
not to interrupt the side conversation but I had a quick fodera question I probably already know the answer to:

looking at the 2012 price list there is no option for an ebony FB - how long has that been the case and I assume it's due to endangered species???

but, I would have thought folks had substantial stock especially in the small dims need for a board - sorry if I'm 5 years late
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#864
Hey, it's all personal and in my response to your post and my rant about YouTube, in no way am I trying to suggest that there is an absolute about Anthony's tone...that is a completely personal "taste" thing and if you don't dig it, you don't dig it...I completely get and respect that. I just wanted to make certain that we are all thinking about everything that goes into tone and not making snap judgements based on limited / possibly incomplete data points (which is far too easy today in our "wired" world IMHO).

Cheers,

J

Angus said:
Could well be. Admittedly I have no idea if it was his normal rig- I don't remember noting the rest of his signal chain any of the times. I think the first was in the early 2000s with with Michel Camilo. Could've been the venues, too. It was enough times, though, that one of the times had to have been with his ideal rig.

Who knows!
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#865
I can't believe people are basing their opinion on AJ's tone from when they see him live. I've never heard a good tone come from a PA system. It's almost always harsh.
 
#866
As I said before, I've only seen him once. Maybe I got lucky, but it was a small venue (Kuumbwa Jazz in Santa Cruz) and there wasn't that much FOH needed. He had his rig, not a generic backline. Simon had his plexi kit (which is evidently more about the fundamental than rich overtones - or so say drummers I know), and of course Hiromi was on a Yamaha grand. It was magic. But bass and drums were not typical or generic - either from a sonic or playing perspective.

fwiw the live tone of that trio (and AJ) sold me far more than the recording. It was only after seeing them live that I was able to "read into" the recording what was going on.
 
#867
hey . . .

there is reality here.

in today's world, you're gonna listen to stuff live in a room or through a pa system, you're gonna listen to stuff on cd—even hear stuff on youtube—at some level it's gotta work in those media. you might even have to attenuate what you do to fit a situation.

pretending that something *is* better than it sounds in those media might be more about the *ideal* and less about the *real*.

*for me* it's like walking into an art gallery full of conceptual art. if it doesn't grab me visually or emotionally, i'm not gonna care about how well constructed or thought-out it is. i don't want to have to read *why* it's good. i want to like it.

<&#8220;Wagner's music is better than it sounds.">
(i like wagner, but the point stands)

for what it's worth, my friend who talked about hearing aj's sound live (within a few days of no static seeing the same band) basically corroborated what i had heard on youtube.

*again*, it all comes down to taste&#8212;you like it or you don't.

if anthony likes his sound, that's really all that matters.
 
#868
steubig said:
*for me* it's like walking into an art gallery full of conceptual art. if it doesn't grab me visually or emotionally, i'm not gonna care about how well constructed or thought-out it is. i don't want to have to read *why* it's good. i want to like it.
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Depends on what level you're engaging the art. Sometimes it takes time and effort to "see" what is going on in the art. And some of that effort is spent talking with the artist or reading about the history behind it. Art isn't all about pretty pictures. Though it can be (and Kincaid, rip, certainly made a good living that way).

There is no right or wrong way to interact with art. But there are different ways. And I agree that taste is taste. If you want to be grabbed immediately by a piece, that is fine. If you want to be challenged by a piece that you kinda don't like, that is fine. If you want to go just read a book because the art is boring, that is fine too. :D
 
#869
nostatic said:
As I said before, I've only seen him once. Maybe I got lucky, but it was a small venue (Kuumbwa Jazz in Santa Cruz) and there wasn't that much FOH needed. He had his rig, not a generic backline. Simon had his plexi kit (which is evidently more about the fundamental than rich overtones - or so say drummers I know), and of course Hiromi was on a Yamaha grand. It was magic. But bass and drums were not typical or generic - either from a sonic or playing perspective.

fwiw the live tone of that trio (and AJ) sold me far more than the recording. It was only after seeing them live that I was able to "read into" the recording what was going on.
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I saw him the next night at Yoshis in Oakland. He had his rig and FOH is all Meyer at Yoshis. AJ's live tone was amazing direct off the stage, from the flown PA above the stage or from the monitors at the front of the stage.

Interestingly, a friend of mine mentioned that one of his students who also attended the show that night was not a fan of Anthony's tone. That night, in that context, with that signal chain, that FOH and that sound engineer, his student became a convert.

There are a great many obstacles, many of which are not within our control, that can get in the way of getting the tone that is in your head out to your audience consistently. That said, I can recognize AJ's sound anywhere because of his note choices, harmonic development, rhythmic choices, etc.

My goal is to develop my sound and my tone, but if I have to prioritize, it would be sound first.
 
#870
wrp said:
I saw him the next night at Yoshis in Oakland. He had his rig and FOH is all Meyer at Yoshis. AJ's live tone was amazing direct off the stage, from the flown PA above the stage or from the monitors at the front of the stage.

Interestingly, a friend of mine mentioned that one of his students who also attended the show that night was not a fan of Anthony's tone. That night, in that context, with that signal chain, that FOH and that sound engineer, his student became a convert.

There are a great many obstacles, many of which are not within our control, that can get in the way of getting the tone that is in your head out to your audience consistently. That said, I can recognize AJ's sound anywhere because of his note choices, harmonic development, rhythmic choices, etc.

My goal is to develop my sound and my tone, but if I have to prioritize, it would be sound first.
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my friend was at this show.

again, it's all taste.
 
#871
nostatic said:
Depends on what level you're engaging the art. Sometimes it takes time and effort to "see" what is going on in the art. And some of that effort is spent talking with the artist or reading about the history behind it. Art isn't all about pretty pictures. Though it can be (and Kincaid, rip, certainly made a good living that way).

There is no right or wrong way to interact with art. But there are different ways. And I agree that taste is taste. If you want to be grabbed immediately by a piece, that is fine. If you want to be challenged by a piece that you kinda don't like, that is fine. If you want to go just read a book because the art is boring, that is fine too. :D
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my point is, i have to *care* about it before i want to read about it. i listen to—and have read and have seen—a lot of challenging stuff, but at this point i need something that means something to me. some it takes a while to assimilate—and sometimes there's no point to it.

i know plenty of people who are on both sides of the issue, so i'm not trying to suggest there's a right way to do it.
 
#872
steubig said:
my point is, i have to *care* about it before i want to read about it. i listen to—and have read and have seen—a lot of challenging stuff, but at this point i need something that means something to me. some it takes a while to assimilate—and sometimes there's no point to it.

i know plenty of people who are on both sides of the issue, so i'm not trying to suggest there's a right way to do it.
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I agree. And what I found was that after hearing the trio live, I was able to better appreciate the recordings. In that case though, hearing Hiromi was enough to make me care ( and enough to make me buy every one of her DVDs).

I also believe that it is impossible to eliminate bias when listening. So while we the recording didn't change from the time before the show to after the show, my perception of things did, so I heard things differently.

That is part of what kills me about the endless TB "tonewood" arguments. It is impossible to eliminate bias, so there is no absolute "answer." But try they will...
 
#877
and . . .

the idea of tone/sound is often thrown around as an absolute: *this is the best* . . .

however, i'd submit that tone/sound is *situational*&#8212;you probably can't use the same tone/sound playing radically different styles of music. sometimes you may want to use different ones for different parts of the same piece of music.

fer instance, you'd use a different shade of blue for a night sky than for a desert sky in bright daylight.
 
#878
Angus said:
So you can't judge it live, you can't judge it from a CD, and you can't judge it from other recordings. Thus...when CAN you evaluate any sound?
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Evaluate anytime you want. If it doesn't sound good coming from the PA, the soundman may be to blame. Same can be said for the CD etc. It really doesn't matter who's tone is considered good or bad. I'll add this: It doesn't seem as though AJ is totally happy with his tone either. He's looking to have another bass built he's always checking out different amps and pre's. In that regard he is like the rest of us. His playing seperates him from the rest of us.
 
#880
Oh man, this has turned into one of those late night college dorm room conversations that itself turns into a thesis paper with a colon in the title. ;)

I want to point out to all of the "it's personal" types that it's actually the dialectic between the individual and the group that creates the opinion. Your "personal" opinion is likely the synthesis of thousands of experiences in the world of bass tone deeply influenced by the ways others have chosen to shape their sound.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructionism#section_1

We're continuing that process right here with a pretty highly informed group. How fun!

Also, in a serendipitous moment earlier today, about the time I agreed that AJ's tone could sometimes be strident,
Someone emailed me to let me know that my own Fodera sounded "weak" on my YouTube channel. He's gone from observing my tone , to describing it to flat out judging it. Well , there's my comeuppance for commenting on someones YouTube tone. ;)
 
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