Fodera Club Part XV

[Damian Coccio]

yeah. he did nail it, but i wonder how it would be if someone else's thing became the go-to so early in the evolution.

fer instance, i've never loved the whole. p bass thing, but engineers love them because they know what to do with since they became the standard early on.

what if james jamerson played an ebo? i think that might've changed quite a bit of how we hear things.

it's purely speculation of course. (sorta like if beta had won out over vhs, or whatever lost out to blu-ray had won)

Yeah, that was sort of where I was headed with my post, that the design sort of defined the standard sound and had the design been different, the sound today of all of these basses we play may also be different. It is interesting and more importantly has parallels outside of bass design.

 

[Brad Johnson]

yeah. he did nail it, but i wonder how it would be if someone else's thing became the go-to so early in the evolution.

fer instance, i've never loved the whole. p bass thing, but engineers love them because they know what to do with since they became the standard early on.

what if james jamerson played an ebo? i think that might've changed quite a bit of how we hear things.

it's purely speculation of course. (sorta like if beta had won out over vhs, or whatever lost out to blu-ray had won)

I've definitely given this angle some thought... here's how it shakes out for me.

While I like the idea of a P bass, I don't want to play one.


Glad you mentioned Jamerson. I honestly don't think his big impact had as much to do with his bass as the player himself. By today's standards and what lots of us have gotten used to, to be blunt... his bass sucked. Deader than dead strings on a bass which clearly wasn't set up for a light touch. Now couple that with the fact that most bass players at the time had no idea who he was let alone what he was playing and it doesn't really slant the ear or the market towards Fender at the time.

Now stack on top of that the tone the Fender was geared towards. Lots of people think that the best specs equals the best product and I've never been on that bandwagon. I've always felt that what sounds good sounds good... doesn't make a difference if it's not flat to 20khz or whatever, what's important is does it make a pleasing sound in the context that it's being used in. There were other choices back then but as much of a Chris Squire fans as I've always been, I didn't personally gravitate towards a Rickenbacker. Gibsons with their mudbuckers? No thanks. Of course that's just me and I know guess who killed on both. Fenders typically don't have the highest highs nor the lowest lows and many of us have found out, much of a surprise to some of us, that that wasn't neccessary.

So I lean towards basses that can carry the load in the mix, not sound wimpy, just carve out that space and demand attention without having to cross the line into being obnoxious. P basses can do that. So can Jazzes. So does my Contrabass.


BTW I think engineers like them because they simply do what they do without requiring a lot of EQ or other sonic gymnastics. The more live gigging I did, the more I understood and appreciated the beauty of a bass that's basically plug and play. Back in the 80's I went out of my way to not gig with my 68 Jazz and some of the "as far as I could get away from Fender" basses were a horror live. I might end up with a sound I could stand by the third set of some shows. Then I got my head out and realized that even if those science experiment basses had been the industry norm all along, I likely would've come to the realization that I liked the Fender tone more. I still feel that way years later. I want good clean clear full range sound but not at the expense of the gonads of a really good ensemble quality (IMO of course) bass.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yeah, that was sort of where I was headed with my post, that the design sort of defined the standard sound and had the design been different, the sound today of all of these basses we play may also be different. It is interesting and more importantly has parallels outside of bass design.

There was a big push away from the Fender vibe from the early 70's on. I still remember the first time I heard Stanley Clarke with a new bass made by Olympic. The good old days. It became all about not playing the "obvious choice" for many. I fell into that too.



The cool thing I think some may be overlooking is how versatile a Jazz and P bass are. If they weren't a ton of icons wouldn't sound as distinct as they do. That's the real beauty of how Leo's designs panned out.

I'll admit I did see alot of folks playing Fenders live and on TV during my formative years. That didn't make the Fenders sound good to me... they just did. Couldn't fight facts.

 

[mozilla314]

There was a big push away from the Fender vibe from the early 70's on. I still remember the first time I heard Stanley Clarke with a new bass made by Olympic. The good old days. It became all about not playing the "obvious choice" for many. I fell into that too.


The cool thing I think some may be overlooking is how versatile a Jazz and P bass are. If they weren't a ton of icons wouldn't sound as distinct as they do. That's the real beauty of how Leo's designs panned out.

I'll admit I did see alot of folks playing Fenders live and on TV during my formative years. That didn't make the Fenders sound good to me... they just did. Couldn't fight facts.

Not Olympic. Alembic.

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

I fought playing Fenders for years but eventually had to cave because it's the sound of bass I grew up with. There is a certain magic that those basses have in the studio though. Hard to explain. But I've tried to use my Imperial 5 on several recordings now and it just doesn't come close to my '73 A-neck Precision w/ flats. Live, the Fodera eats it for breakfast lunch and dinner. But it's all based on perception and what we consider classic, or acceptable in our minds.

 

[nickbass79]

Wait! What? Fodera's?
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Quilty!

 

[Damian Coccio]

There was a big push away from the Fender vibe from the early 70's on. I still remember the first time I heard Stanley Clarke with a new bass made by Olympic. The good old days. It became all about not playing the "obvious choice" for many. I fell into that too.


The cool thing I think some may be overlooking is how versatile a Jazz and P bass are. If they weren't a ton of icons wouldn't sound as distinct as they do. That's the real beauty of how Leo's designs panned out.

I'll admit I did see alot of folks playing Fenders live and on TV during my formative years. That didn't make the Fenders sound good to me... they just did. Couldn't fight facts.

Maybe what gets adopted as a standard stays a standard for good reasons like the ones you mentioned.

What I enjoy thinking about Is what if leo started out with two humbuckers? Or a single music man type arrangement? Or three pickups? How would that have pushed the sound?

A jazz sits well in a mix, no doubt, but a mix of what...In a three piece the bass can occupy more tonal space than in a seven piece.

Take AJ,s contrabass, it has two more strings than an old fender and a different pickup setup. With basses seeing progressively more and more solo and melodic space since the fender inception I don't think the original fender designs are always the go to. The two humbuckers on in a Fodera sounds totally different than a jazz and also sit very well in a mix.

It's interesting to think about how the bridge pickup location help to define the jaco tone in the same way that zons graphite necks and pickup locations helped define define manring's. Or the pj combo helped define victor's. etc... The tonal and dynamic differences push the playing different places too.

I don't have a particular point to make other than that I enjoy thinking about this stuff and playing and making different basses.

 

[Damian Coccio]

I fought playing Fenders for years but eventually had to cave because it's the sound of bass I grew up with. There is a certain magic that those basses have in the studio though. Hard to explain. But I've tried to use my Imperial 5 on several recordings now and it just doesn't come close to my '73 A-neck Precision w/ flats. Live, the Fodera eats it for breakfast lunch and dinner. But it's all based on perception and what we consider classic, or acceptable in our minds.

Yup.

 

[steubig]

I've definitely given this angle some thought... here's how it shakes out for me.

While I like the idea of a P bass, I don't want to play one.


Glad you mentioned Jamerson. I honestly don't think his big impact had as much to do with his bass as the player himself. By today's standards and what lots of us have gotten used to, to be blunt... his bass sucked. Deader than dead strings on a bass which clearly wasn't set up for a light touch. Now couple that with the fact that most bass players at the time had no idea who he was let alone what he was playing and it doesn't really slant the ear or the market towards Fender at the time.

Now stack on top of that the tone the Fender was geared towards. Lots of people think that the best specs equals the best product and I've never been on that bandwagon. I've always felt that what sounds good sounds good... doesn't make a difference if it's not flat to 20khz or whatever, what's important is does it make a pleasing sound in the context that it's being used in. There were other choices back then but as much of a Chris Squire fans as I've always been, I didn't personally gravitate towards a Rickenbacker. Gibsons with their mudbuckers? No thanks. Of course that's just me and I know guess who killed on both. Fenders typically don't have the highest highs nor the lowest lows and many of us have found out, much of a surprise to some of us, that that wasn't neccessary.

So I lean towards basses that can carry the load in the mix, not sound wimpy, just carve out that space and demand attention without having to cross the line into being obnoxious. P basses can do that. So can Jazzes. So does my Contrabass.


BTW I think engineers like them because they simply do what they do without requiring a lot of EQ or other sonic gymnastics. The more live gigging I did, the more I understood and appreciated the beauty of a bass that's basically plug and play. Back in the 80's I went out of my way to not gig with my 68 Jazz and some of the "as far as I could get away from Fender" basses were a horror live. I might end up with a sound I could stand by the third set of some shows. Then I got my head out and realized that even if those science experiment basses had been the industry norm all along, I likely would've come to the realization that I liked the Fender tone more. I still feel that way years later. I want good clean clear full range sound but not at the expense of the gonads of a really good ensemble quality (IMO of course) bass.

re jamerson, i think a lot of people knew his playing and what it sounded like. john paul jones, paul mccartney, any number of r&b players in the u.s., ad nauseum.

now obviously, a lot of people didn't always play a fender, but it was in the air. think carole kaye, et al.

they other thing about jamerson was that i think he was an upright guy and early motown was coming out of the whole thinkg of pop music using upright, so dead flatwound strings made sense.

if you think of enwhistle starting to roundwounds it was an *incredbile* departure. it was radically different at that time, and i think a lot of people really disliked the sound when it first started up. (really a revolution at that time.)

without sounding like a jerk, i wonder how old you are. i ask because when i was coming up fender was absolutely the cool bass. people didn't call it "electric bass," they called it "fender bass." see bands with epiphone hollow bodies was not cool. the only cool guys without fenders were probably jack bruce and glenn cornick.

for me the jazz bass looked cooler (and i liked the sound better). back in the 70s, people might actually have been disappointed if you showed up with a jazz rather than a p for a demo session or whatever. engineers liked how the p sat in the mix, but they also didn't like taking time they knew what to do and it was what people expected to hear. sorta like how i used to have to deal with the hourlong drum check but the 30-second line check for bass when playing in clubs. engineers don't want to care.


in any event, i tend to think that what is considered to be something that works is based on what's come becore us. dunno if it's true or not.

 

[Damian Coccio]

I don't want to get too far off topic, and If I do it's because I'm enjoying a place with a collection of intelligent folks, that's all. I'm a Fodera man all the way but how I arrived here is a long story, but it included building a lot of my own basses. When I couldn't afford what I wanted 10 or 15 years ago I built one. I made a few jazzes, a zon copy and a ct copy. The left bass has a piezo bridge and an em pickup, mahogany wings and a maple neck thru. The center bass in my science project jazz, it has a walnut top, ash back, maple neck ebony board withe every possible pickup coil setup you can get out of two dual coils. The right most is a 36" scale with coco bolo top, mahogany back, maple neck, ebony board. The tight pickups at the bridge were an interesting experiment the bass probably weighs 14 lbs and the B is ridiculous. I had a chance to play them all live years ago, and Ive got a pile of other high end bought basses.

I'm playing two basses these days, a 34" imperial elite and an mgs. I've got another Fodera in the works. I never tried to make a Fodera like bass because I can't even come close to the workmanship. They got so many things just right.

 

[Damian Coccio]

Wait! What? Fodera's?

Quilty!

I really like quilts, sounds fantastic. Is that a Birdseye board?

 

[Strokey]

Looks like Phil Smith's bass IIRC.

Good eye...it was Phil's bass. I am very lucky to have it.

 

[Plunger]

Not Olympic. Alembic.

I am sure that Brad was making a joke; a very old one among Alembic owners(I know because I've owned two in the past)

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

I don't want to get too far off topic, and If I do it's because I'm enjoying a place with a collection of intelligent folks, that's all. I'm a Fodera man all the way but how I arrived here is a long story, but it included building a lot of my own basses. When I couldn't afford what I wanted 10 or 15 years ago I built one. I made a few jazzes, a zon copy and a ct copy. The left bass has a piezo bridge and an em pickup, mahogany wings and a maple neck thru. The center bass in my science project jazz, it has a walnut top, ash back, maple neck ebony board withe every possible pickup coil setup you can get out of two dual coils. The right most is a 36" scale with coco bolo top, mahogany back, maple neck, ebony board. The tight pickups at the bridge were an interesting experiment the bass probably weighs 14 lbs and the B is ridiculous. I had a chance to play them all live years ago, and Ive got a pile of other high end bought basses.

I'm playing two basses these days, a 34" imperial elite and an mgs. I've got another Fodera in the works. I never tried to make a Fodera like bass because I can't even come close to the workmanship. They got so many things just right.

DUDE! nice work man....very impressed!

 

[Munjibunga]

I've definitely given this angle some thought... here's how it shakes out for me.

While I like the idea of a P bass, I don't want to play one.


Glad you mentioned Jamerson. I honestly don't think his big impact had as much to do with his bass as the player himself. By today's standards and what lots of us have gotten used to, to be blunt... his bass sucked. Deader than dead strings on a bass which clearly wasn't set up for a light touch. Now couple that with the fact that most bass players at the time had no idea who he was let alone what he was playing and it doesn't really slant the ear or the market towards Fender at the time.

Now stack on top of that the tone the Fender was geared towards. Lots of people think that the best specs equals the best product and I've never been on that bandwagon. I've always felt that what sounds good sounds good... doesn't make a difference if it's not flat to 20khz or whatever, what's important is does it make a pleasing sound in the context that it's being used in. There were other choices back then but as much of a Chris Squire fans as I've always been, I didn't personally gravitate towards a Rickenbacker. Gibsons with their mudbuckers? No thanks. Of course that's just me and I know guess who killed on both. Fenders typically don't have the highest highs nor the lowest lows and many of us have found out, much of a surprise to some of us, that that wasn't neccessary.

So I lean towards basses that can carry the load in the mix, not sound wimpy, just carve out that space and demand attention without having to cross the line into being obnoxious. P basses can do that. So can Jazzes. So does my Contrabass.


BTW I think engineers like them because they simply do what they do without requiring a lot of EQ or other sonic gymnastics. The more live gigging I did, the more I understood and appreciated the beauty of a bass that's basically plug and play. Back in the 80's I went out of my way to not gig with my 68 Jazz and some of the "as far as I could get away from Fender" basses were a horror live. I might end up with a sound I could stand by the third set of some shows. Then I got my head out and realized that even if those science experiment basses had been the industry norm all along, I likely would've come to the realization that I liked the Fender tone more. I still feel that way years later. I want good clean clear full range sound but not at the expense of the gonads of a really good ensemble quality (IMO of course) bass.

Why do I find myself agreeing with this?

 

[Lennard III.]

Three weeks to go for the production start of my new one

 

[Just Thumpin']

Everyone knows that Olympic and Fedoras are great basses!

J

I am sure that Brad was making a joke; a very old one among Alembic owners(I know because I've owned two in the past)

 

[cnltb]

A string related question;
How would you describe the difference in tone and 'behaviour' between exposed core strings and non exposed core?
Thanks!

 

[Lennard III.]

Everyone knows that Olympic and Fedoras are great basses!

J

and don't forget about "Feodora"

 

[DELACIUS]

I really like fedora too!!!