Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Fodera Imperial Elite 5-String Available!
- Thread starter Just Thumpin'
- Start date
- Status
To me, it sounds like it's time for a bigger shop/more employees. Then again, I'm not the most business-savvy person in the world.
Their model must be working on some level, as they have a slew of people falling over themselves to spend BIG bucks on something with a multi-year wait. They must be doing something right.
Their model must be working on some level, as they have a slew of people falling over themselves to spend BIG bucks on something with a multi-year wait. They must be doing something right.
+1 Again, IMO it's not about the absolute wait time, but the customer expectations combined with poor communication (there are still Fodera retailers that are telling customers that there is a 9 month order to delivery period
).Chris Celinder, who also hand carves everything in his shop from start to finish just like Fodera, also got in a heap of PR/customer trouble due to poor communication and missing stated deadlines by months and months in some cases). He finally clearly stated that he will not take any more orders until he is relatively caught up (I believe his site says that will be sometime on 09). That's cool, and very different than if I was promised a bass to be completed over a year ago, and all of a sudden I see new 'spec' instruments being completed while my bass is not even in production.
Sorry, IMO, no excuse for this. If I was very cynical, I would say that selling a spec instrument for full price direct from the shop gives them a significantly higher chunk of change than finishing orders at 2005 prices... but that motivating reason would REALLY suck
+1.. nobody is saying the basses aren't worth the wait or the money (at least for those who like the feel and tone of these instruments).
And, they are using those huge price increases to try to bring supply and demand back into line, which is a smart thing to do (i.e., if you have a 3 year wait, it means that you aren't charging enough). They just seem to need a reset on their process at this point, whether it means just taking no more orders for a year or two to catch up, or adding staff and outsourcing more stuff (which I've heard through the grapevine might be happening). Building extra spec instruments does not seem part of the solution to me
Sorry, IMO, no excuse for this. If I was very cynical, I would say that selling a spec instrument for full price direct from the shop gives them a significantly higher chunk of change than finishing orders at 2005 prices... but that motivating reason would REALLY suck
I have no idea about Fodera's situation but it could be a matter of paying employees and staying afloat. Good, bad or indifferent you gotta pay the bills. It takes a LONG time to turn a situation like this around. Celinders aproach is very much how knifemakers do it. They open up for orders for a few days or weeks and then shut off the valve for a year or two
Most never take deposits. If someone cancels when their knife is complete, no problem, they offer it to others on their list or post it for sale on their websites. As I previously mentioned, having faith in your product and customer base is important. Some never take custom orders at all and build what they want, when they want. It might not make everyone happy but that's the easiest way for a small operation to manage orders.
I think Fodera purposely limits production to keep prices up ..at least to some significant degree. This keeps the used market higher too(which they deal with ) on their own site. For that matter..it keeps the NYC prices higher too..which are significantly higher than *similiar* spec'd Jazz basses avail now. If that IS the case then alot of the wait time could be for nothing other than Fodera- made for their own reasons. Either that, or things are not as efficient as they could be over there in key areas of production. I love the Foderas I have played, dont get me wrong, but if Vinny has to "touch" or carve each neck and thats the choke point issue over there then everything else should be running like a well- oiled machine up to that point- something that I've heard/read may not be the case. If that is also part of it then customers are paying and waiting partly because of reasons that could be helped.
Either way, I agree with KJ, that with top priced orders in the market like that and people waiting 3-4 years ( understandably or needlessly) for their orders (that they have shown good faith on per deposit and patience), they really should be spending any time they can spare on customer's instruments and not making a quicker faster buck in the face of their committed wait list. After all, its basically leap-frogging one customer ( unknown) over everyone else and in public too. Who knows how many times that happens anyways , but at least we dont all know about it
I'm not ignorent of business practices, I'm just commenting on what I think is right and fair.
Either way, I agree with KJ, that with top priced orders in the market like that and people waiting 3-4 years ( understandably or needlessly) for their orders (that they have shown good faith on per deposit and patience), they really should be spending any time they can spare on customer's instruments and not making a quicker faster buck in the face of their committed wait list. After all, its basically leap-frogging one customer ( unknown) over everyone else and in public too. Who knows how many times that happens anyways , but at least we dont all know about it
I'm not ignorent of business practices, I'm just commenting on what I think is right and fair.
I took those basses to be high end basses, but of components that were available and ready to go. Which I assume makes the process a little quicker than taking someones wishes and all down.
THAT SAID, their time line is way out of whack IMO. I am constantly reading that someone is waiting an extra year or two, and someone miraculously jumped into position through a cancelled order. Myself, I am nearing two years for what should have been a year on that olde electric guitar.
However, I knew this to be the scenario, as I have yet to have a custom built instrument be delivered anywhere near when they said they would deliver it. Mike T is one of the few I know that consistently hits his mark. I take it to be par for the course.
THAT SAID, their time line is way out of whack IMO. I am constantly reading that someone is waiting an extra year or two, and someone miraculously jumped into position through a cancelled order. Myself, I am nearing two years for what should have been a year on that olde electric guitar.
However, I knew this to be the scenario, as I have yet to have a custom built instrument be delivered anywhere near when they said they would deliver it. Mike T is one of the few I know that consistently hits his mark. I take it to be par for the course.
+1.. nobody is saying the basses aren't worth the wait or the money (at least for those who like the feel and tone of these instruments).
And, they are using those huge price increases to try to bring supply and demand back into line, which is a smart thing to do (i.e., if you have a 3 year wait, it means that you aren't charging enough). They just seem to need a reset on their process at this point, whether it means just taking no more orders for a year or two to catch up, or adding staff and outsourcing more stuff (which I've heard through the grapevine might be happening). Building extra spec instruments does not seem part of the solution to me
The basic problem I see with all this conjecture is... all this conjecture
. Unless you know who is building what, you don't know who is building what.Knowing the general wait times (do we?), why should they turn down an order? If people are willing to line up and wait...?
And is Fodera giving hard completion dates? I know that I don't know.
The basic problem I see with all this conjecture is... all this conjecture
Knowing the general wait times (do we?), why should they turn down an order? If people are willing to line up and wait...?
And is Fodera giving hard completion dates? I know that I don't know.
Read above postsLet me restate so that my point is obvious. If there was only ONE customer who's bass has been delayed WAY past the promised date, and that customer is unhappy about it, then there is IMO no (zero, none, nada) justification to spend one second of time on ANYTHING else but getting that customer's bass done.
Mike plans well
The custom bass I use have been delivered on time and sometimes early. It's possible
. Still, I guess if I were ordering a Fodera, did my research, knew the demand and was still time conscious... that's largely on me. IMO of course.
It seems that many of you are forgetting that there is a waiting list for these instruments. It sometimes takes months or longer just to get to a customers bass order. Essentially you are waiting in line. Like Disneyland, only with a much better ride at the end. Vinnie says that in a good year that he can build roughly 120 basses by hand, which is already impressive, in the same breath he told me that he receives roughly 250 orders a year. That's more than twice as many than he can build, the waiting list goes up from there. The official wait time I believe is roughly 18 months now, that's the minimum wait not including extremely unusual custom options. Trust me I know, I am a friend of the Joey and Vinnie's and an "Fodera Artist" and I have been waiting for almost 2 years just like anyone else including all of the heavy hitters. I am willing to wait that long because I feel that their instruments are worth it in every way possible. Vinnie takes tone into account during every aspect of the instruments build process, sometime this means rebuilding things. In my case it meant filling hundreds of tiny,tiny pinholes in a burl top by hand, where most manufacturers would just epoxy the entire piece of wood, Vinnie wouldn't because it compromise the integrity of the woods tone. Now that's something that I can respect. If more builders would do this than there would be more great instruments, yes that would mean longer waits but you wouldn't see as many of those basses up for resale. Also people don't take real life events into consideration. When you are talking about one man (artist) building an instrument if he gets sick, or someone in his family gets sick (which has happened, God bless him) he must take time off to deal with that issue. Thus increasing the wait time. Another person may say "why not add more staff to build?" my answer is, that the unwillingness to compromise quality is what makes a Fodera, a Fodera and bringing more people in could compromise that. If you want a real wait time look into Bob Benedetto's beautiful instruments, it makes Fodera's look like millisecond and a fraction of the cost. If you are not willing to do the wait than these are simply not the basses for you. But I do know that they are the basses for me.!!!!!! Just take a look at the reward.
Vinnie says that in a good year that he can build roughly 120 basses by hand, which is already impressive, in the same breath he told me that he receives roughly 250 orders a year. That's more than twice as many than he can build, the waiting list goes up from there. The official wait time I believe is roughly 18 months now, that's the minimum wait not including extremely unusual custom options. Trust me I know, I am a friend of the Joey and Vinnie's and an "Fodera Artist" and I have been waiting for almost 2 years just like anyone else including all of the heavy hitters. I am willing to wait that long because I feel that their instruments are worth it in every way possible. Vinnie takes tone into account during every aspect of the instruments build process, sometime this means rebuilding things. In my case it meant filling hundreds of tiny,tiny pinholes in a burl top by hand, where most manufacturers would just epoxy the entire piece of wood, Vinnie wouldn't because it compromise the integrity of the woods tone. Now that's something that I can respect. If more builders would do this than there would be more great instruments, yes that would mean longer waits but you wouldn't see as many of those basses up for resale. Also people don't take real life events into consideration. When you are talking about one man (artist) building an instrument if he gets sick, or someone in his family gets sick (which has happened, God bless him) he must take time off to deal with that issue. Thus increasing the wait time. Another person may say "why not add more staff to build?" my answer is, that the unwillingness to compromise quality is what makes a Fodera, a Fodera and bringing more people in could compromise that. If you want a real wait time look into Bob Benedetto's beautiful instruments, it makes Fodera's look like millisecond and a fraction of the cost. If you are not willing to do the wait than these are simply not the basses for you. But I do know that they are the basses for me.!!!!!! Just take a look at the reward.Attachments
It seems that many of you are forgetting that there is a waiting list for these instruments. It sometimes takes months or longer just to get to a customers bass order. Essentially you are waiting in line. Like Disneyland, only with a much better ride at the end.
sigh... the absolute wait time has nothing to do with anything here.
I give up
sigh... the absolute wait time has nothing to do with anything here.
I give up
Me too. This WAS an interesting thread. :scowl: Now it's time to just sit back and watch Brad argue.
Mike plans well
The custom bass I use have been delivered on time and sometimes early. It's possible
Hey Brad, I agree with the above totally. At this stage (i.e., 2008), most know that Fodera's will take three or four years from placing an order, and at this point, it's 'buyer beware'. I totally agree.
However, back three or four years ago, people were told quite a different story, and all I'm suggesting is that they get some of these basses that were promised YEARS ago off the books prior to spending months (if the above is accurate) building spec instruments for new buyers
It seems that many of you are forgetting that there is a waiting list for these instruments. It sometimes takes months or longer just to get to a customers bass order. Essentially you are waiting in line. Like Disneyland, only with a much better ride at the end.
Are you saying Vinny is the only guy in the shop that builds everything himself from scratch? He has a few other people...he does necks primarily along with other things I understand. But there are other guys building and putting together alot of the production in there right?..if they NEED another guy then maybe they should get someone, become more efficient in getting necks to Vinny- or whatever he needs , put out some more basses and collect the balances of their orders faster.
Also, is not Vinny off doing 25th Anniversary series basses with time - comsuming inlays etc that are on "spec" too? If so, does that not also take away time from completing orders from the waitlist?
Bottom line is, whatever time they tell, it will probably be longer. That has happened to a ton of peeps, there is no denying that. In that sense, their time line is out of whack, and the thought that other instruments make it into light of day while orders slip further has a valid point in making some feel negative about their process. No matter what justification is used.
Dosn't matter if we know what the deal is, estimates should be somewhat accurate.
Dosn't matter if we know what the deal is, estimates should be somewhat accurate.
If you're prepared for the wait that's cool but I don't reckon they should building stock basses instead of dealing with the backlog. I'd rather get over and done with.
- Status
