Following 16ths

[Piggy8692]

I just got the new BassPlayer Magazine with the progressive metal bassists Evan Brewer, Liam Wilson, and Nolly Getgood.

After reading their discussion, I have decided to simplify some of my basslines, mostly the ones where we(me and guitarist(s)) play fast 16th note rhythms.

What approach do you guys take when playing less than the guitarists? There's one riff we have where if I were to simplify my part I would just be playing 8th notes under what otherwise would be a heavy fast paced rhythm, not just straight 16ths.

I know that everyone has their own creative spin on everything and I'm not asking for you to write me parts for me. I'm more or less looking for what will sound better either live or in the studio. Even though I AM trying to simplify, I don't want to over do it and be too simple.

 

[Bainbridge]

Play the harmony, or play an actual bass line. Playing a simplified version of what the guitar is doing only makes the bass subordinate. There should be plenty of room for you to fit into the music.

 

[Russell L]

Do the eighth notes if that's as fast as you can go. I remember simplifying a bass part in an orchestral piece. Actually, the whole bass section had to because no one could actually play it as written. It was 32nd notes. But I forget what the name of the piece was.

 

[Piggy8692]

I am able to follow his 16th rhythm, it would just probably sound clearer playing 8ths or selected 16ths. I was just looking into what you guys might or might not do.

I'm thinking within the mindset that just because you can match fast rhythms doesn't mean you always should.

If that adds any clarity.

 

[adamsmatthewj]

Yes I just read that article too, great knowledge in there!
I absolutely agree with their statement that sometimes half-ing the guitars 16ths is a good idea. I can play 16ths, on the B, with my fingers, all day. That's not the problem. The idea is this: due to the physical nature of the sound wave we are creating with our bass, it benefits us to play a little less. Those large sound waves need air and space and time to move! Therefore, playing that much at all times will actually take away from not only the bass sound itself, but it will take away from the effect the bass is having on the music. It will therefore take away from the "whole", completely negating what bass is there to do.
The principle of letting your notes "breathe" as much as possible goes for all genres, all techniques, all the time. If you want the most out of the sound wave you are creating, then let it do it's thing!

 

[Mark Wilson]

Legatttoooo

 

[MalcolmAmos]

As I see it we augment and harmonize the melody, without competing with the melody. So it is not necessary that both belt out 16th. As others have said, try 8's and see how you like them.

.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The idea is this: due to the physical nature of the sound wave we are creating with our bass, it benefits us to play a little less. Those large sound waves need air and space and time to move! Therefore, playing that much at all times will actually take away from not only the bass sound itself, but it will take away from the effect the bass is having on the music.

A very good point about the "physical nature" of the sound.
“Big notes for big venues, small notes for small venues.”

If you create/compose a new and really "groovy" riff with the unplugged bass guitar (I'm not talking about the double bass/upright bass/etc...) without any other instruments playing, you (at least I) tend to play more notes in order to fill that “instrument-free” frequency spectrum (no drums, no guitar, no keyboard, etc...)
The riff sounds really good (at least to your ears).

Next morning, you plug your bass in and notice that the groove, now played on the amplified (plus, some effects) bass guitar, sounds just a little bit too "busy".
Maybe, it would be a good idea to trim ("Figuratively speaking") at least one/two note/s?

Next, you play your riff with the drums. The "perfect" groove, performed on the unplugged bass without any other instruments, starts getting too "busy”.
Next, the guitar/keyboard player joins you. Another adjustment?

The principle of letting your notes "breathe" as much as possible goes for all genres, all techniques, all the time. If you want the most out of the sound wave you are creating, then let it do it's thing!

When talking about music arrangements/texture (music), I use the term, “breathe” quite often, but for some reason, the word “breathe” is not popular (used) here at this forum.
What’s more, Google has only one reference to the word, “breathe” when talking about music:
“groove is an elusive thing" it can be defined as "what makes the music breathe".
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed])

 

[KevInDaBassment]

It largely depends on the style of your band, but I feel most people don't let the note get savored as much as it deserves. My first band's drummer had the same problem, where the beats just didn't sound like they had any authority because each hit got choked out by the next one coming right behind it. I notice this with a lot of younger musicians who tend to overdo the same stuff when they start playing in bands (louder = better, faster = better). The old saying is quite true...less is more.

 

[matthewzarder]

When allowing the guitarist to shred unimpeded, I personally will stick to dotted quarter/eighth note riffs...its simplified but not incredibly boring. Then if im doing a 4th count run into the 1 downbeat, I love to throw in triplets to make things interesting. Note: I don't play metal, so my style may not translate.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Good topic. Doubling a straight guitar rhythm is cool sometimes, but can get boring pretty fast. In these situations i tend to coordinate a more interesting rhythm with the drummer's kick drum. Pretty much it's up to you which beats of the measure you want to accent, what you choose will have a different effect on the groove and feel. Usually a contrasting rhythm to the guitar sounds great and groovy, usually a sparser rhythm and/or disjointed rhythm in relation to what the guitar is playing.

Note choice is up to you, even a contrasting rhythm on the root can tend to sound pretty good.

 

[tmntfan]

I know you don't want to over simplify but some times just holding whole notes makes the sound huge, especially after playing the 16/8ths for a few bars.

another idea would be to play "Shots" hitting the highs/lows of the guitar line or the down beat of each bar or something to that effect.

 

[JimmyM]

Case by case basis.

 

[Schmorgy]

To get real scientific for a second, think about how sound is made.
You have your "wavelength" and lower pitches have a longer wavelength and higher pitches have a shorter one. To get the full effect of that wavelength you typically want it to sound out to its conclusion, but if you keep "overlapping" them so to speak, you completely lose definition of individual notes and they blend together into mud.

It's a safer bet that you can get away with faster notes on higher pitched notes, and its why guitars can play so fast and still sound good, whereas pedalling a low C or B note on the bass gives you that awful droning sound without any real feel to where each note starts and ends. The lower you go, the slower you can try going. That isn't to say there isn't a time and place to play quickly on the lower notes, but simply following the guitar identically will only bring you both down.

If you're worried about falling into the root note monotony, you could try arpeggios of whatever chord the guitarist is playing at that time, even trying walking bass lines within his chords. It can keep the rhythmic push going, add to the melody, and make the bass stand out as an instrument in its own right, not just as a supportive role.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

After reading their discussion, I have decided to simplify some of my basslines, mostly the ones where we(me and guitarist(s)) play fast 16th note rhythms.

I’d like to ask you a few things.

How did your songs/compositions sound before you read the article and decided to simplify your basslines?

Have you ever tried to record your songs, listen to your recordings and compare it to other songs of the similar style groups?

Did your basslines sound “too busy” before you’d read the article, and you were just waiting for some “authoritative” voices to confirm what you had already known?

Or, you’ve just decided to follow “the leader” without any considerations of your songs?

What approach do you guys take when playing less than the guitarists? There's one riff we have where if I were to simplify my part I would just be playing 8th notes under what otherwise would be a heavy fast paced rhythm, not just straight 16ths.

My recommendation to any bass player - get some kind of music production device.
It could be any Yamaha/Casio/etc. portable keyboard with sequencing capabilities or Yamaha QY70/QY100.
Create on the sequencer those “16th note guitar rhythms”, start experimenting with your basslines, record it and listen to it.
It’s your composition/song, and you’ll be the judge.
What’s more, with the help from the sequencer, you, as the bass player, would be able to “offer/sell” your rhythmic structure (not just bass notes) to other musicians – the guitar/drum/keyboard/etc. players, because your own “censorship” ears have already done the listening part and it sounded good.
Remember, in music, one size does not fit all.

I know that everyone has their own creative spin on everything and I'm not asking for you to write me parts for me. I'm more or less looking for what will sound better either live or in the studio. Even though I AM trying to simplify, I don't want to over do it and be too simple.

Overall, I’ve noticed that in the studio, I tend to play some extra/small notes.
When performing live, those small notes could get “muddy”; therefore, I’d try “simplify” my bass part in order to keep the strong groove and have more room for fun and entertainment.

I used your word, “simplify”. I truly disagree with that word.
Why?
If your song/composition requires the 16th notes, by simplifying your bassline - playing the 8th notes – you would damage your song; therefore, I would use the word, “improving” your bassline.

Let’s say, a composer/arranger wants the bass and guitar musicians play the monotonous ostinato 16th notes while the lead vocal or soloing instrument is “doing some strange stuff/notes/harmony/etc…”
If you decide to simplify the bass, you could “dull” the composition/song.

On the other hand, maybe the song does not need the 16th notes played on the bass; therefore, you should work on improving your bass line.
In the past, I used to get upset while listening to the early basslines of Aaron "P-Nut" Wills from 311, almost constantly playing the bass notes from the guitar riffs.

I don't want to over do it and be too simple.

It would be easier if I had a specific example and the TEMPO. Without listening to the groove, it is kind of difficult to answer your question.
I would say, if the riff on the bass alone acoustically sounds too “crowded” and “muddy”, don’t play all the guitar riff notes.

Don't play very short notes in the lower bass registry.

Also, don’t just convert the 16th notes to the 8th notes. Be creative, try various takes, record it, and listen.

Somewhere, play along with the guitar, somewhere play your, more or less, independent “counterpoint” bassline.

Anyway, remember you should have enough technique, experience, knowledge, and necessary skills to play comfortably the bassline.
That’s number one rule with some exceptions.

 

[Piggy8692]

I’d like to ask you a few things.

How did your songs/compositions sound before you read the article and decided to simplify your basslines?

Have you ever tried to record your songs, listen to your recordings and compare it to other songs of the similar style groups?

Did your basslines sound “too busy” before you’d read the article, and you were just waiting for some “authoritative” voices to confirm what you had already known?

Or, you’ve just decided to follow “the leader” without any considerations of your songs?

To answer your questions, I think some parts sound a little muddy when I'm poundin on my low B. The song in question is running at about 188 bpm. Not incredibly fast, but fast enough to lose some sound quality.

I haven't done anything recording-wise. I'm not really a busy bassist (I don't think). I know that certain parts will sound better if you slow down. I was looking into some different ways to attack it.

I was working today with my drummer who was until today playing a straight forward 1 2 beat, so me and guitarist going crazy on 16ths didn't quite gel. Drummer wants to do more, I want to do less. I looked at holding out my notes when guitarist was hitting the 16th, and matching his 8ths. Made for a different feel for sure.

I definitely appreciate and tips/advice I might get from 'the leaders' but I'm not going to just change all my parts without making sure it's still me...

A lot of good stuff from you guys. Thanks for the posts.

 

[Alieen]

To get real scientific for a second, think about how sound is made.
You have your "wavelength" and lower pitches have a longer wavelength and higher pitches have a shorter one. To get the full effect of that wavelength you typically want it to sound out to its conclusion, but if you keep "overlapping" them so to speak, you completely lose definition of individual notes and they blend together into mud.

It's a safer bet that you can get away with faster notes on higher pitched notes, and its why guitars can play so fast and still sound good, whereas pedalling a low C or B note on the bass gives you that awful droning sound without any real feel to where each note starts and ends. The lower you go, the slower you can try going. That isn't to say there isn't a time and place to play quickly on the lower notes, but simply following the guitar identically will only bring you both down.

If you're worried about falling into the root note monotony, you could try arpeggios of whatever chord the guitarist is playing at that time, even trying walking bass lines within his chords. It can keep the rhythmic push going, add to the melody, and make the bass stand out as an instrument in its own right, not just as a supportive role.

agree..

 

[Jazz Ad]

I usually start compositions with intricate lines. Then as the song progresses I only keep what works and often end with a very basic frame when the song is done.

Another take on simplicity one that made me think.

 

[Snarf]

Without hearing the music, I couldn't give a definite answer. In general though it's good to go with the kick drum. His line is going to be outlining chords, so make sure the roots of those chords are prominent.

 

[Schmorgy]

Since you like metal based on the OP, I'll also point to August Burns Red's Dustin Davidson. He follows guitars on bouncing off the C note as much as anyone (they ARE metalcore, and the breakdown's supposed to be simple anyway) but if you listen to his playing at any other time during a song, he's GROOVING and carrying a melody in his own right.