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Formal theory training - why? This is why.
- Thread starter buldog5151bass
- Start date
These discussions usually reveal two camps: Sour Grapes and Ego Strokers.
The way music theory is used in different styles of music regarding the same theoretical technique can be very confusing. For instance the way James Hetfield of Metallica writes a thrashy riff to use a "pedal tone" will sound completely different than the way Charlie Haden might use a "pedal tone" over a jazzy chord progression. A chord inversion used by K.K. Downing of Judas Priest in a riff will sound completely different than a chord inversion used by Bill Evans on the piano in jazz. I seriously doubt Lemmy or Tony Iommi sit down and say "I think I'm going to write this song in the key of ? today". Most hard rock and metal musicians just jam and if the riff rocks it wins. I'd say it's a big difference than the world of Blues, Country, Jazzers that write around 1-4-5 and 2-5-1 progressions. Alex Skolnick from Testament is one of the only metal musicians that cares enough about theory to have gone back to school for jazz.
And then there's some who fall into both camps.
What a highly cynical way of looking at a thread like this.
I was listening to Testament just a while ago & thinking he's so damn talented, and wondering again why Testament weren't one of the big four, or even a big five.
Most of my friends back then would've picked Testament over Anthrax any day of the week.
I want to at least memorize the fretboard, to save myself some embarrassment.
A shop owner was showing me his version of the New Year's Day - U2 lick & we each had a bass.
He said, "and down to the B". I slipped down to C, then back up one fret, LOL. It was quite unnatural, and he didn't say anything, but I'm sure he was thinking, "Oh dear, another TAB learner!".
No, he wasn't judgemental at all, but in my own mind, I couldn't help but be slightly embarrassed.
The Alex Skolnick Trio is a piece jazz band and they have jazz versions of Metallica, Judas Priest, and Black Sabbath songs if you're interested. He is a very talented and humble person.
Don't be worried about the way you learn just have fun doing it. I learned from tablature and can read little sheet music; however I have a clear understanding of theory and am able to use it to achieve the sounds I want. There are some people who can play anything you give to them on sheet music but they'll never write a song or create their own parts in a song recording an album.
Don't be worried about the way you learn just have fun doing it. I learned from tablature and can read little sheet music; however I have a clear understanding of theory and am able to use it to achieve the sounds I want. There are some people who can play anything you give to them on sheet music but they'll never write a song or create their own parts in a song recording an album.
True, but let's not forget that there are lots of people who can do it all
One does not exclude the other.
Interesting that TAB has been mentioned. It's a fast way to learn a tricky bit of a song you haven't been able to work out by ear. Trouble is people stopped using their ear.... which makes you dependent on more TAB, etc.
I had trouble working out a song last night (bass was buried under guitars in the audio), so opened it up in Amazing Slow Downer app and used headphones.
I slowed it down a lot and transposed it up an octave. Bass was clear as anything. Wish I had this technology when I was starting out.
I had trouble working out a song last night (bass was buried under guitars in the audio), so opened it up in Amazing Slow Downer app and used headphones.
I slowed it down a lot and transposed it up an octave. Bass was clear as anything. Wish I had this technology when I was starting out.
I've been in IT management for 20 years and I don't know anyone that would prefer a self-taught programmer - all other things being equal. As a matter of fact, when you get 100 applications for every position you look for reasons not to read a resume and I don't know any mangers that don't look at whether or not they have a degree first. And don't forget - Bill Gates didn't write MS-DOS, he licensed it.
I could not be in any more disagreement with this. The only people I've ever heard say this are the ones without the rigorous training. In my whole career, with the thousands of people I've met over the years, I've never heard anyone say that they wish they knew less about music. However, I can't count how many times I've heard someone say they wished they knew how to read music, write music, figure out a chord, knew more theory, etc, etc, etc. Without fail, when I hear a really bad musician, they've had no training. NOT to be confused with if they have no training they are a poor musician.
True, but let's not forget that there are lots of people who can do it all
This is true and the further I go personally into jazz interests the more I desire to better my sight reading. There are a lot of different types of players out there. The most important part is to do what you love doing and decide if you're willing to get past being frustrated to push forward.
I have found that a great many competent players know a great deal of theory. Whether they know it or not.
Luckily I have known a few, because I was self-taught, but I was also in a niche market & I could speak the local language.
That's true for the guy who comes up with the new riff. But as a bassist, when your guitarist comes up with a cool riff it's your job to figure out how to play bass to it. You can always play roots or just double the guitar, but if you know a little about how music works (aka theory) than you can do a whole lot more.
4 amazing books: 100 Jazz Lessons by Josh Needleman and Matt Rybicki, Beginning Jazz Bass Lines by Dominic Hauser, Blues Bass by Ed Friedland, and Country Bass by Glenn Letsch. All books have both Tab and Sheet music, the lessons learned if you put the time into learning theory are the same for each method of translation. Excellent lessons on walking bass lines, chord construction, song form, chromatics, secondary dominants, modes, arpeggios, chord extensions, odd time...you name it.
I agree with you though. I know a plethora of players who want to learn a song like "Man In The Box" by Alice In Chains in 3 minutes to play at the local cover band bar and have no desire to attempt theory lessons. Therefore tab is their quick solution. I wouldn't consider myself to fit in this category though, I actually just want to soak up theory knowledge and use it in songwriting or to help write interesting bass lines over my fellow musicians songs. I've always had a knack hearing scales and intervals in music. I use to go free jam at my friends and we would all switch off improving over 3 chords, It was a lot of fun to see what would happen in the moment. Using your ear is indeed one of the most important skills you can develop, sometimes thinking about too much theory can distract your ear from guiding your hands where you really want it to go.
As I go into more jazz studies yes I do see the benefit in learning something note for note and examining it through sheet music like Scott Lafaro's playing on "Gloria's Steps" from Bill Evans-Sunday at the Village Vanguard or Charles Mingus's "Goodbye Porkpie Hat"; but to be honest I have more interest in just looking at the chord chart and working with other musicians to create our own unique version.
I'm just reporting the posts I read. I've been a software engineer for 21 years.
It's a fact, not a value judgement. Limiting your choices is not necessarily a negative. Learning rules is always about limiting your choices in a smart way. I can type random characters if I know nothing. If I want my c++ code to compile I am (by my choice) limited to syntactically correct constructs. The same applies in music. The freedom of random notes and rhythm has to be limited by musical knowledge in order to sound good.
I have many years of schooling in both software engineering and music, and I strongly endorse both. I don't think that training reduces your musicality once you properly absorb it. During the in-between phases as codified by Anthony Wellington, a player may actually sound worse than before they were schooled.
EDIT: I looked at what I typed earlier, and it can easily be misconstrued. By "limiting creativity" I am referring to self-imposed rules that ensure that what you play comes out sounding "good" in the way you intend. Creativity is good when it is tempered with knowledge and taste, and I consider these to be limits or filters, not limits as in you are less creative.
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Training limiting your creativity is not a fact at all. I would think that if you have many years of schooling in music you would understand that Music Theory is not a set of rules but an explanation of what is being played. The only people limited by Music Theory are the ones that don't know how to apply it.
