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Formal theory training - why? This is why.

#81
i guess I'm not being clear....I actually agree with pretty much everything you guys are saying. I think training is a good thing, in any field, and it does NOT hurt your creativity. Since my powers of communication are failing me in this thread, please ignore everything I said on the subject. :)
 
#82
smeet said:
i guess I'm not being clear....I actually agree with pretty much everything you guys are saying. I think training is a good thing, in any field, and it does NOT hurt your creativity. Since my powers of communication are failing me in this thread, please ignore everything I said on the subject. :)
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I'm sorry but this is TB and I feel the need to keep arguing even though we agree. :D
 
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#83
buldog5151bass said:
I posted this in another thread in response to a question, but wanted to get some reactions from the members.

IMO, while formal music theory training is not necessary, it allows you to progress further and faster, and I make this comparison. While you learn to speak your native language from listening to others, you still study grammar in school. Why? It allows us to speak and comprehend at a higher level, and learn more quickly.

No one says you shouldn't study grammar in school, because it interferes with your "creativity". Neither should your study of music theory.
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I studied Theory, "Advanced" Theory, and Jazz Theory in school and I will say, it helped me immensely. (Not that I'm some genius musician) but I find I blow more people away with my theory than my playing. I always try to my best when jamming or playing with any fellow musician to teach them a little theory, even the tiniest thing like the number system related to scales or what intervals make up a major chord and most really enjoy it! I will go further in saying I think it helps bassists more than anyone as we generally have to have a better understanding of the music and harmony and how we can further control harmony to make the song better. I also find that it seems that musicians who are knowledgeable in theory are almost frowned upon. As a final P.S. I think one of the best parts of knowing theory is when you play in a band with another musician who is knowledgeable in theory. Ex. I was filling in for this band and I was over practicing with them. Most of the music was chugging on the root type stuff with some riffs here and there so instead of stopping the momentum and the guitarist saying, "Ok, the riff is 3rd fret to 5th fret to, etc, etc." He'd say "The riff is just an ascending A Dorian run, etc, etc." It made the whole process go a lot faster! Just my .02 on this topic! :D
 
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#84
lfmn16 said:
I would think that if you have many years of schooling in music you would understand that Music Theory is not a set of rules but an explanation of what is being played.
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This is what is sadly missing from most people's training though. Quite often I would imagine it is because the professors are the typical "those who cannot do teach" types.

I think the formal part is what gets people hung up. So many of my favorite musicians come from a heavy jazz background, even though many of them don't necessarily perform in that genre much. They obviously know a lot of theory, but they didn't typically learn it at Berklee (although a lot of them dropped out of these). They learned it on the go from each other.

The book "Thinking In Jazz" is a great resource into how many jazz cats got their chops and knowledge....and it is quite a different way from the way it is taught in school these days.
 
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#85
amusicalperson said:
...He'd say "The riff is just an ascending A Dorian run, etc, etc." It made the whole process go a lot faster! Just my .02 on this topic! :D
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LOL. Were you guys playing Whipping Post? I had that exact same comment to a guitarist I was playing with when were doing that song. You know the part... It's an ascending A Dorian scale...
 
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#87
smeet said:
i guess I'm not being clear....I actually agree with pretty much everything you guys are saying. I think training is a good thing, in any field, and it does NOT hurt your creativity. Since my powers of communication are failing me in this thread, please ignore everything I said on the subject. :)
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I think I get what you're saying, and I've spent the last few minutes trying to word it better. I'll take a stab at it. I've written a few stories that have been published. I have good training in story writing and have my own style developed through writing exercises as well as writing stories. My ideas are not at all limited by the conventions of grammar and punctuation; in fact, knowing how to properly connect clauses with a semi colon allows my thoughts to flow more directly. If you were to take a look at my early prose, it's jerky and the ideas I have outlined are poorly expressed, mostly due to my limited vocabulary and poorly structured sentences. However, learning guidelines for style, as well as expanding my vocabulary and structuring skills allows a more organic and readable work. That's how music theory works. My creativity is not limited by the "rules" but my ideas are tempered and more easily expressed by the provided guidelines. Is that what you meant, but with C++?
 
#90
Icemanaroonie said:
I think I get what you're saying, and I've spent the last few minutes trying to word it better. I'll take a stab at it. I've written a few stories that have been published. I have good training in story writing and have my own style developed through writing exercises as well as writing stories. My ideas are not at all limited by the conventions of grammar and punctuation; in fact, knowing how to properly connect clauses with a semi colon allows my thoughts to flow more directly. If you were to take a look at my early prose, it's jerky and the ideas I have outlined are poorly expressed, mostly due to my limited vocabulary and poorly structured sentences. However, learning guidelines for style, as well as expanding my vocabulary and structuring skills allows a more organic and readable work. That's how music theory works. My creativity is not limited by the "rules" but my ideas are tempered and more easily expressed by the provided guidelines. Is that what you meant, but with C++?
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I think that's it. We are all born with infinite potential, but at the same time, we don't know how to do anything at all. As we limit ourselves (don't eat poison, do eat apples), our knowledge and skill base becomes more practical and useful.
 
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#91
denhou1974 said:
And some who fall into neither.

Interesting that you have a need to pass judgement. Is everything okay?
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Coming from a guy who said, "These discussions usually reveal two camps: Sour Grapes and Ego Strokers," I'd say you have zero business commenting on someone else's alleged need to pass judgment, sir.
 
#92
JimmyM said:
Coming from a guy who said, "These discussions usually reveal two camps: Sour Grapes and Ego Strokers," I'd say you have zero business commenting on someone else's alleged need to pass judgment, sir.
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My comment was an observation of what had already been posted. You agreed to it by saying "And then there's some who fall into both camps." IMO there's more value in having people think about why they are taking a position rather than defending the position. Especially on topics of philosophy. Therefore my post was a contribution to the discussion.

Somehow you took offense to it.
 
#95
So now that we have had a lot of discussion about theory training I'd like to hear opinions on creating "Free Jazz" like Ornette Coleman who rejected using pre-determined chord choices and wanted to play in the moment with melodic lines. ;-D
 
#96
Killed_by_Death said:
I was listening to Testament just a while ago & thinking he's so damn talented, and wondering again why Testament weren't one of the big four, or even a big five.
Most of my friends back then would've picked Testament over Anthrax any day of the week.

I want to at least memorize the fretboard, to save myself some embarrassment.
A shop owner was showing me his version of the New Year's Day - U2 lick & we each had a bass.

He said, "and down to the B". I slipped down to C, then back up one fret, LOL. It was quite unnatural, and he didn't say anything, but I'm sure he was thinking, "Oh dear, another TAB learner!".
No, he wasn't judgemental at all, but in my own mind, I couldn't help but be slightly embarrassed.
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Testament are part of the big 6 in my books, don't forget Exodus.

Saw them open for Judas Priest on the Nostradamus tour and they killed.
 
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