Formula 1/F1/Formula One

[roller]

Max's lunge at the beginning of the race, resulting in Lewis getting off-course was an interesting set of events. I don't think Masi and his crew got that one right as Lewis drove away with a nice lead they wouldn't have received otherwise. Thankfully, the VSC nullified this.

Sure, it's a downer when any race ends under yellow, but it's certainly not the end of the world... it happens. Racing doesn't need to be manufactured to try to avoid finishing under yellow caution. I realize NASCAR does this... but I don't consider NASCAR a serious form of racing.

Ending under a yellow would have been unsatisfying, but less stupid than what happened and less stupid then the rain out "win" Max was credited with earlier in the season. Write this season off as exciting but ultimately a crap show of bad decisions by F1.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Max's lunge at the beginning of the race, resulting in Lewis getting off-course was an interesting set of events. I don't think Masi and his crew got that one right as Lewis drove away with a nice lead they wouldn't have received otherwise. Thankfully, the VSC nullified this.

Sure, it's a downer when any race ends under yellow, but it's certainly not the end of the world... it happens. Racing doesn't need to be manufactured to try to avoid finishing under yellow caution. I realize NASCAR does this... but I don't consider NASCAR a serious form of racing.

He slowed and let Verstappen catch back up before driving off into the distance again. He was in the lead before being forced off of the track in the corner, he was in the lead after the corner, and his gap didn't grow. By F1's rules, he didn't keep a lasting advantage.

 

[ThudThudThud]

It is amazing how rules change on the fly...lol

Very exciting lap ...and Max won!!!

I do wonder if that title will stick?

It's amazing how rules change on the fly, especially when Christian Horner is whining in Michael's ear about what would work best for his driver.

 

[ThudThudThud]

Nico got his title in '16, so it wasn't consecutive for Lewis... but he's been nothing but impressive since showing up on the scene.

And although Toto about blew a gasket today, happy to see Hamilton's class after today's race. Max could learn a thing or two from that.

Max couldn't find class in a high school. He's a petulant child who thinks only of himself.

 

[Jeff Scott]

...I don't consider NASCAR a serious form of racing.

Hear! Hear! Like WWE.

 

[3bc]

F1 doesn't need to be adding laps to their races. If one of their events ends under yellow (for whatever the cause), that's the way the cookie crumbles... or if it ends with one lap of green, that's just how it is. But F1 (or any racing series) shouldn't have to "keep going" until another outcome takes place. This is motorsport.

After yesterday's checkered, supporters of Max were happy, supporters of Lewis were upset and the internet is filled with discussions like ours. If Masi and his team had ended the race under yellow, the shoes would be on other feet and there would still be a bunch of unhappy people crying foul, that the wrong decision was made.

Can you imagine what the fans would be saying if the race ended under yellow??? "The Mercedes-powered Williams brought out a questionable caution which allowed Lewis to win the title." At least we don't have to hear that for the rest of time.

I’m not a F1 lifer which I understand invalidates my opinion in certain ways, but maybe is worth actual consideration in a “fresh eyes” kind of way. My suggestion fixes the complaints Red Bull would have if the race ended under the safety car and they also would have no complaints, literally both sides should be satisfied with the outcome, at least in terms of fairness.

there’s basically no way max wins that race yesterday in any other circumstances. There’s no way we was going to make up that much ground with 6 laps and without those brand new soft tires he never would have pitted for. I’m not looking for some “other” outcome, I’m looking for the racers to decide the outcome in a fair competition. This is dumber than deciding a hockey game via a shootout IMO.

 

[Roxbororob]

He slowed and let Verstappen catch back up before driving off into the distance again. He was in the lead before being forced off of the track in the corner, he was in the lead after the corner, and his gap didn't grow. By F1's rules, he didn't keep a lasting advantage.

Wow I'm not sure which race you are referring to! Ill defer to the opinion of Martin Brundle on that one.

He had to slow because he was told to "give the advantage back'". Do you really believe a dyed in the wool racer would have graciously slowed on his own?

 

[roller]

Yes, NASCAR has monkeyed with the rules so much, it's hard to take the series serious. There's racing... and then there's whatever you call what NASCAR does.

The only reason NASCAR has this current ridiculous concoction of stage racing and bonus points is because NBC cried after they spent too much on being able to cover the series. True story -- it was a blind bid to get the second half of the Cup series after ESPN wisened up and got out... and the geniuses at NBC strolled in and WAY overpaid for it as if it was 1994. Once they realized their mistake and saw how bad the ratings were, they were unhappy and they whined to NASCAR and basically told them to fix it. So NASCAR comes up with the stage racing system and the rest is history. Combine this system with all their squeaky clean, good guy drivers and it's been a dwindling disaster.

But even before stage racing, NASCAR was pre-arranging some of their races... and that certainly doesn't go over well with educated race fans.

Hear! Hear! Like WWE.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

Wow I'm not sure which race you are referring to! Ill defer to the opinion of Martin Brundle on that one.

He had to slow because he was told to "give the advantage back'". Do you really believe a dyed in the wool racer would have graciously slowed on his own?

I don't know what you're reading, but is surely wasn't my post. I made no reference to why he let Max catch back up, nor who did or don't instruct him to. I only stated that he did. You're imagining I said something that I did not say.

 

[Roxbororob]

I quoted your post directly mostly for the "he was in the lead before being forced off the track" part.
Lunge or not who is clearly in the lead here (by half a car before the apex)?

This is motor racing not croquet.
Lewis left the door open, Max lunged because he had no other option, the merc has suddenly been a much faster car in the last races. Was the move late, banzai, aggressive? Of course it was (that motor racing thing again) but he made the corner and didnt lock his brakes.

When Lewis goes off he certainly isnt in the lead:

When Lewis comes back he has taken a shortcut and is now pretty far ahead (in the lead). Contrary to most of what you wrote.

Look I dont have a personal beef with you or the others. I respect that you have your opinion. But Im an old school racer who has had some hard knocks`(its in my blood) and Im disagreeing with your opinion on this one for sure. As I said I prefer to agree with Martin Brundle who is an F1 veteran and has been in an upside down Jordan at 100+mph (off topic maybe Ill admit).

Edited for typos (maybe typing a little too fast!)

 

[3bc]

I quoted your post directly mostly for the "he was in the lead before being forced off the track" part.
Lunge or not who is clearly in the lead here (by half a car before the apex)?
View attachment 4504123

This is motor racing not croquet.
Lewis left the door open, Max lunged because he had no other option, the merc has suddenly been a much faster car in the last races. Was the move late, banzai, aggressive? Of course it was (that motor racing thing again) but he made the corner and didnt lock his brakes.

When Lewis goes off he certainly isnt in the lead:
View attachment 4504133
When Lewis comes back he has taken a shortcut and is now pretty far ahead (in the lead). Contrary to most of what you wrote.
View attachment 4504134

Look I dont have a personal beef with you or the others. I respect that you have your opinion. But Im an old school racer who has had some hard knocks`(its in my blood) and Im disagreeing with your opinion on this one for sure. As I said I prefer to agree with Martin Brundle who is an F1 veteran and has been in an upside down Jordan at 100+mph (off topic maybe Ill admit).

Edited for typos (maybe typing a little too fast!)

I’m not a racing savant by any means, but that first picture says a lot. Lewis took a smart angle into that curve, one that is going to let him scoot out of that curve A LOOOOT faster than the ridiculous aggressive/lunging angle Max took it at. Just because he snuck the nose of his car in front of Lewis in this picture does not mean he was “in front” of Lewis in any meaningful way. If you removed all of the cars from the track and ran Lewis alone at his angle and ran Max alone at his angle, Lewis would have been out in front by a second or more. Lewis basically had to slam on the brakes and take evasive maneuvers in order to avoid almost T boning Max because of that ridiculous approach angle. Lewis would have come out of that turn going 30mph or more faster than Max because he was going to come out of the curve going almost straight, while Max had no choice but to slam on the brakes and make a much harder/sharper turn well after the apex of the curve, because of that approach angle.

Because Max snuck his nose out ahead of Lewis, even if it was somewhat reckless, does that mean he’s in front? Or because the eye test would tell you that based on the angles and trajectory Lewis would have wound up probably about as far ahead as he did anyway, did Lewis not gain much of an advantage by having to slow way down and go off the track?

That’s not a rhetorical question really, interested in opinions here. But IMO Lewis didn’t wind up further ahead than he would have without Max lunging wildly at him.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Edited for typos (maybe typing a little too fast!)

Thad's knormyl fer mie!

 

[Jeff Scott]

...Max had no choice but to slam on the brakes and make a much harder/sharper turn well after the apex of the curve, because of that approach angle.

Max didn't lock-up his brakes, and he made the turn without overcooking the corner. Just sayin'.

 

[3bc]

Max didn't lock-up his brakes, and he made the turn without overcooking the corner. Just sayin'.

So you think he took that turn at an appropriate angle, and didn’t go out of his way to lunge? The pictures posted above show every other car on the track taking the same angle Lewis did. Not a single other car approached the turn almost completely perpendicular the way Max did.

lastly, I know very little about F1 in the grand scheme of things, I thought it was almost impossible to lock up those brakes? Don’t F1 cars go from 0-100-0 in like under 3 seconds?

 

[Roxbororob]

So you think he took that turn at an appropriate angle, and didn’t go out of his way to lunge? The pictures posted above show every other car on the track taking the same angle Lewis did. Not a single other car approached the turn almost completely perpendicular the way Max did.

lastly, I know very little about F1 in the grand scheme of things, I thought it was almost impossible to lock up those brakes? Don’t F1 cars go from 0-100-0 in like under 3 seconds?

Drivers lock the brakes and flat spot their tires all the time.

 

[Jeff Scott]

So you think he took that turn at an appropriate angle....

This is racing, who cares about what is an appropriate angle in the heat of battle.

lastly, I know very little about F1 in the grand scheme of things, I thought it was almost impossible to lock up those brakes? Don’t F1 cars go from 0-100-0 in like under 3 seconds?

You have a lot of homework ahead of you. To start, watch every race from just this past season, alone, to learn a bit about F1 brakes.

 

[3bc]

Drivers lock the brakes and flat spot their tires all the time.

Thank you for your insight, I'm definitely a novice when it comes to the sport. Is this done purposefully for a specific effect or because they slam on the brakes so hard they just lock?

 

[3bc]

This is racing, who cares about what is an appropriate angle in the heat of battle.

You have a lot of homework ahead of you. To start, watch every race from just this past season, alone, to learn a bit about F1 brakes.

Thank you for your insight, I'm definitely a novice when it comes to the sport. Is this done purposefully for a specific effect or because they slam on the brakes so hard they just lock?

I understand the heat of the battle thing. I don't know the F1 etiquette at all. Is that kind of lunge frowned upon, widely accepted? The announcers seemed to have no serious issue with the maneuver, or really the response from Hamilton either. It didn't seem to me like Hamilton came out of that turn with any more or less advantage than he had going into the turn.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

I quoted your post directly mostly for the "he was in the lead before..."

Wait, I was expected to know your Brundle comment was about anything specific? How? Without knowing which Brudle comment you were referring to it could have been any of the thousands of things he's said in his career as a driver or commentator.

The only real comment you made was that Lewis only gave time back because he was made to. And I made no claim counter to this in my comment. So you were arguing against something I never said.

Lewis was a car length ahead at the start of braking, and the only way to avoid a collision was to go off track. After the turn, he gave back time. The FIA deemed that in doing so, the advantage he had at the start of the turn was maintained, and hence there was no lasting advantage. This is all fact. I am and was only stating what the FIA decided, not my personal opinion.

Since you're using some random point (certainly not the apex because Max missed that by a long way), where is the rule that states that the random point you are using as your reference is the point used to determine who is in the lead. If that is not the reference of who is 'in the lead" on the corner, that exact moment in time is irrelevant. At different times either Max or Lewis were "ahead in the turn". So unless you have some regulation that says the point your picture shows is what matters in determining who is ahead, that picture doesn't matter in any way.

 

[Roxbororob]

I’m not a racing savant by any means, but that first picture says a lot. Lewis took a smart angle into that curve, one that is going to let him scoot out of that curve A LOOOOT faster than the ridiculous aggressive/lunging angle Max took it at. Just because he snuck the nose of his car in front of Lewis in this picture does not mean he was “in front” of Lewis in any meaningful way. If you removed all of the cars from the track and ran Lewis alone at his angle and ran Max alone at his angle, Lewis would have been out in front by a second or more. Lewis basically had to slam on the brakes and take evasive maneuvers in order to avoid almost T boning Max because of that ridiculous approach angle. Lewis would have come out of that turn going 30mph or more faster than Max because he was going to come out of the curve going almost straight, while Max had no choice but to slam on the brakes and make a much harder/sharper turn well after the apex of the curve, because of that approach angle.

Because Max snuck his nose out ahead of Lewis, even if it was somewhat reckless, does that mean he’s in front? Or because the eye test would tell you that based on the angles and trajectory Lewis would have wound up probably about as far ahead as he did anyway, did Lewis not gain much of an advantage by having to slow way down and go off the track?

That’s not a rhetorical question really, interested in opinions here. But IMO Lewis didn’t wind up further ahead than he would have without Max lunging wildly at him.

It's a fair enough observation/question. Still pictures dont show the speed involved. But to lunge from that far back and come up even (ahead) indicates tha he us moving faster. The second photo supports this (of course Lewis is now offline).
When the stewards make their calls (and when pundits analyze) they always pause the video at just before the apex like I did to judge the alignment of the two cars. Max is ahead (though...the stewards didn't agree!).

Edit ( last one I promise and with due respect) where you begin your braking has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with it. Try that argument with Daniel Riccardio or Valentino Rossi!

Again Martin Brundle doesn't often go out on a limb but he reaffirmed and said he was standing by his disagreement with the stewards. It's all a moot point though because Hamilton would have repressed anyways.

In my first post after the race I said

No sorry thats justice handed down from the gods.

and that was because this was payback for many bad calls over the season (and for many other "Hamilton/Merc" things going back many seasons) objective no, subjective yes. I admit.

I'm not necessarily a Max fan. I loathed his ultra dangerous move on Raikkonen on the straight at Spa hiscforst year with Red Bull (but of course Kimi brushed it off as not very nice).

It's not very nice how the race ended but in F1 the race ain't overv till it's over, you need to be ready for anything take every opportunity and Red Bull did.

I blabbed enough now and apologize to Frank Tuesday for being prickly.