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Double Bass Four-letter word beginning with "B"

seamonkey said:
Maybe what ticks off the people that buy 7x products is that they have no real idea if on reference, they're gear is superior. It's all subjective.

In all fairness, it should be mentioned that if we are just comparing small bass amps, perhaps the differences in "B" gear are not quite as obvious. Grainy sound, harshness, noise, etc. are more associated with higher frequencies.

If you do a side by side comparison of a "B" mixer with something like Soundcraft or even Mackie, there is nothing subjective about it, IMO. I've done it. If "B" builds their bass amps like they do their mixers, I would not touch one with a ten foot pole.

I don't like to spend money. I have some budget gear, but it's GOOD budget gear (Oktava microphones, for example). If I can get away with spending less, I will. But to suggest that folks like myself might really not hear a difference is a little insulting. I've spent years comparing amps and cabinets, as many folks here have. Have you played through a dozen or more different amps on the bandstand, in bad rooms, with loud drummers, etc.? Those situations separate the good from the bad.

If someone here actually gigs regularly with a "B" amp, please speak up. I'd love to hear how you like it.
 
larry said:
In all fairness ...

I was speaking of bass gear where no specs are published.

For pro sound equipment specs are published and you can compare the specs and equipment side by side. And B isn't bad at all. Take a look at what others measure:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec....=quality+of+behringer+mixers#971cccf392a6873b

I do believe that people can hear the difference in equipment, even cables. But if there's no measurements taken and specs published - it's all subjective.
 
mje said:
I started out in pure physiological psychology, doing research in a hearing lab, and drifted over into cognitive and psycholinguistics. Must be something about musicians, eh?

I started with pure, basic psychoacoustic research 27 years ago and am still in it.
 
seamonkey said:
Here's something I don't get.
Measurements. It would really help to choose equipment if there were some reference measurements. Yes sure they can be misunderstood or abused, but they're just not there at all for bass gear.

You can't possibly try a piece of gear in every situation you might expect to play it in. Trying it in a store is no good because it's not realistic, no band playing with you, and lots of drone cones and basses around....

I can see why B doesn't always publish measurements because the brands 7x it's price don't.

Maybe what ticks off the people that buy 7x products is that they have no real idea if on reference, they're gear is superior. It's all subjective.

What I don't get is why the 7x brands get away with not doing it. Just a step away is pro-sound which does do measurements at the 7x prices, and the lower priced brands typically publish something.


What measures would you like? Would you like measures of bass amps/cabs in an anechoic environment? While not representing the environments in which such equipment is used, I do agree, however, that such measures would provide some information that would allow one to assess quality.

The current state of affairs does make it difficult to purchase BUT I guarantee you that once I have the equipment in my hands, I, for one sure do know if it is superior. I don't need reference measures for that. After all, if one judges a piece of equipment to be superior in that it sounds and performs better in his his/her opinion, I think that is all that counts.

Consider someone who finds product X to be far more desirable than product Y, based on actual use. I don't suppose that individual would switch to product Y if you showed him/her that some objective reference measurement showed it to be superior.

I say all of this while being a stanch proponent of objective measures.
 
seamonkey said:
I do believe that people can hear the difference in equipment, even cables. But if there's no measurements taken and specs published - it's all subjective.

Even cables? Well, I don't think so unless we're discussing the difference between intact, well shielded cables and ones with poor connections/shielding. The cable companies epitomize snake-oil salespeople.
 
seamonkey said:
So what causes the hate? It's my opinion that the price does.

In my case, it's the cheesiness of the construction of the pieces I've tried plus the "We blatantly ripped of other designs, but you can't pin it on us because our lawyers are thorough - na na na na boo boo" factor. :rollno:
 
Chris Fitzgerald said:
In my case, it's the cheesiness of the construction of the pieces I've tried plus the "We blatantly ripped of other designs, but you can't pin it on us because our lawyers are thorough - na na na na boo boo" factor. :rollno:
In your post and in the posts of others I see a lot of hate/anger coming through. There must be something I am not getting... some personal way in which Behringer maligned you, that you feel so strongly. I can understand saying, "Wow, what a piece of junk. Too bad I wasted some cash on this, I won't buy from them again!" But to get to the point of animosity that I've been seeing, there has to be more. What am I missing?
 
Tbeers said:
In your post and in the posts of others I see a lot of hate/anger coming through. There must be something I am not getting... some personal way in which Behringer maligned you, that you feel so strongly. I can understand saying, "Wow, what a piece of junk. Too bad I wasted some cash on this, I won't buy from them again!" But to get to the point of animosity that I've been seeing, there has to be more. What am I missing?

The blatant stealing of the designs of others. They don't even try to hide it, and I find that sickening. I feel the same way about "music sharing" and software piracy. Somebody creates something, then these ***wipes come along and steal it and sell it for less. IMO, people who engage in such things deserve a good kick in the groinal region with some good old KY steel-toed farmer boots. :scowl:

Hey, RAYBIRD... after reading the above, it seems I'm not as big a tree hugging bleeding heart as some folks around here might otherwise believe, huh? :D
 
Chris Fitzgerald said:
The blatant stealing of the designs of others. They don't even try to hide it, and I find that sickening. I feel the same way about "music sharing" and software piracy. Somebody creates something, then these ***wipes come along and steal it and sell it for less. IMO, people who engage in such things deserve a good kick in the groinal region with some good old KY steel-toed farmer boots. :scowl:

Sorry I don't see parallel there. Apples and oranges.

When you talk about "designs" are you talking about the outsides? A lot of things look the same. Just about every bass amp manu has a "kickback" design. Even bands look the same as another bands, and bands "sound" the same. Some of this stuff can be trademarked and copyrighted. If so then B nor anybody else can't use it no matter how good their lawyers are. Luckily not everything gets and exclusive on "looks" by some company.

Or are you talking about the insides? Apparently - nothing B produces has been proven yet to be stolen.

When you have an hour:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt....y+of+behringer+mixers&rnum=4#4d7ad118486e048a
The guy here is kind of a hot head, but maybe you'll find something useful.

Myself I'm glad B is out selling for less, and with good quality. When they gear fits my need I buy it in clear conscience.

You probably sell for less too - you probably play some other bands song at a reduced rate than the original artist. The club doesn't hire the original act. For every dollar you make - how much money do you send to the original band? Or is there no parallel here either?
 
seamonkey said:
You probably sell for less too - you probably play some other bands song at a reduced rate than the original artist. The club doesn't hire the original act. For every dollar you make - how much money do you send to the original band? Or is there no parallel here either?

Artists are compensated for other bands playing their songs through ASCAP and BMI. Those fees are paid by the venue. In other words, the clubs, bars, restaurants, etc. Chris (or any of us) play in pay ASCAP and BMI, and then ASCAP and BMI pay the artists. It's part of being a club-owner.

So no, there's no parallel there.
 
seamonkey said:
I can see why B doesn't always publish measurements because the brands 7x it's price don't.

Maybe what ticks off the people that buy 7x products is that they have no real idea if on reference, they're gear is superior. It's all subjective.

What I don't get is why the 7x brands get away with not doing it. Just a step away is pro-sound which does do measurements at the 7x prices, and the lower priced brands typically publish something.
B could jump ahead of the competition by publishing real specs, such as speaker response curves.

The 7x brands get away with it because we allow it.

I don't allow it. With speakers, I build my own because it is the only way of knowing what I am getting. I don't buy pro sound gear because I don't need that much power, but I agree that it is specified a lot more rigorously. For me, an integrated bass amp head is still the convenient way to go, but I was able to make an educated guess as to the performance of an entry level model (let's say 1.5x the price of B) from a brand that has earned my loyalty. Then I made a bunch of measurements during the money back trial period.

The manufacturers don't want to publish specs, because they can sell more expensive gear by forcing us to compare models under duress -- the showroom environment, sales pressure, widespread superstitions, and so forth. An informed consumer is an empowered consumer. There is a perpetual atmosphere of uncertainty about whether a piece of gear will meet your needs, so you are tempted to buy the more expensive piece. They happily allow us to perpetuate the belief that there is nothing to be learned from objective data. I call it the "use your ears, not your brain" mentality.

Then, there is also a competitive issue. Published data would encourage comparison shopping, but it would also encourage a competitor to offer a model with the same specs for a lower price.
 
larry said:
Artists are compensated for other bands playing their songs through ASCAP and BMI. Those fees are paid by the venue. In other words, the clubs, bars, restaurants, etc. Chris (or any of us) play in pay ASCAP and BMI, and then ASCAP and BMI pay the artists. It's part of being a club-owner.

So no, there's no parallel there.

OK then - whew - It's good to know the legal system must be working. I glad I didn't go into some be rant about copy cats and ripping off the originals.
<insert smileys> (I would but they looked like they were ripped off from Yahoo)
 
fdeck said:
B could jump ahead of the competition by publishing real specs, such as speaker response curves.

The 7x brands get away with it because we allow it.

I don't allow it. With speakers, I build my own because it is the only way of knowing what I am getting. I don't buy pro sound gear because I don't need that much power, but I agree that it is specified a lot more rigorously. For me, an integrated bass amp head is still the convenient way to go, but I was able to make an educated guess as to the performance of an entry level model (let's say 1.5x the price of B) from a brand that has earned my loyalty. Then I made a bunch of measurements during the money back trial period.

The manufacturers don't want to publish specs, because they can sell more expensive gear by forcing us to compare models under duress -- the showroom environment, sales pressure, widespread superstitions, and so forth. An informed consumer is an empowered consumer. There is a perpetual atmosphere of uncertainty about whether a piece of gear will meet your needs, so you are tempted to buy the more expensive piece. They happily allow us to perpetuate the belief that there is nothing to be learned from objective data. I call it the "use your ears, not your brain" mentality.

Then, there is also a competitive issue. Published data would encourage comparison shopping, but it would also encourage a competitor to offer a model with the same specs for a lower price.

That's it exactly!
 
seamonkey said:
Sorry I don't see parallel there.

I can live with that.


Myself I'm glad B is out selling for less, and with good quality. When they gear fits my need I buy it in clear conscience.

Enjoy!

You probably sell for less too - you probably play some other bands song at a reduced rate than the original artist. The club doesn't hire the original act. For every dollar you make - how much money do you send to the original band? Or is there no parallel here either?

When I record with a group that does covers, we pay royalties on the covers - the release of the last album got held up while trying to get the royalty rates and permissions straight for a cover we did of Scofield's "Wabash II". We waited until it was hashed out. When I perform at a club, it's as Larry says. I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to see it my way. I was asked to explain why I see the B******** scenario the way that I do, and I did that. I doubt that Thomas Jefferson would have a problem with that. What do you think?
 
Chris Fitzgerald said:
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone to see it my way. I was asked to explain why I see the B******** scenario the way that I do, and I did that. I doubt that Thomas Jefferson would have a problem with that. What do you think?

It seemed to be expressed with hate and anger. As if you possible didn't know the whole story, made assumptions, and jumped to conclusions. I could be wrong, but it read that way to me.

BTW - the quote in my signature is straight out of this boards bylaws. And in my opinion this side of the board is much better about respect than the other.
 
I don;'t see hate and anger, but I see a fair amount of contempt for that company's business practices, and IMHO it's merited. I understand why people want cheap gear. It's a question of degree--imitation goes on all the time, but B---- makes blatant copies and hides behind international copyright law.

But like I said before--imagine some band makes nearly identical copies of the tunes recorded by your favorite artists. Same arrangements, same solos. And they sell them for cheaper, wiithout compensating the original band. Yes, you'd get the cd for cheap. Would it be ethical?

There's your exact parrallel. Imagine your favorite album, then imagine B---copies it note for note, puts a slightly different cover on it, and sells it for ten bucks less. Fair?
 
fdeck said:
...
The manufacturers don't want to publish specs, because they can sell more expensive gear by forcing us to compare models under duress -- the showroom environment, sales pressure, widespread superstitions, and so forth. An informed consumer is an empowered consumer. There is a perpetual atmosphere of uncertainty about whether a piece of gear will meet your needs, so you are tempted to buy the more expensive piece. They happily allow us to perpetuate the belief that there is nothing to be learned from objective data. I call it the "use your ears, not your brain" mentality.

Then, there is also a competitive issue. Published data would encourage comparison shopping, but it would also encourage a competitor to offer a model with the same specs for a lower price.


Okay, my friend, you and I have agreed in these threads on just about everything. I believe you have missed a couple of important points here. First, let me say that having been an audiophile since the age of about 12 and having "grown up" to be an auditory scientist, I firmly believe that objective measures should be provided and that they are important. Anyone who followed the hi-fi world closely through the '60s and '70s (as I did) knows well the various pitfalls and problems.

One very important aspect of the measures is that they be the relevant ones. In addition, there must be education regarding what they mean and how to use them properly. The manufacturers are typically of little help here. Many companies focus upon the importance of differences in specs when those differences are meaningless. This results in a "spec war" in which the uneducated consumer becomes the victim. A case in point is the total harmonic distortion (THD) spec for amplifiers. Hi-fi manufacturers used to love to paste that one up there and try to convince you that their amp was better because it had a THD of 0.0001% rather than 0.001%. It wouldn't matter-- no human could tell the difference. What was worse was what they may have done to the circuit to achieve that figure! Often, they caused other problems.

The uneducated consumer can also be a source of the problem. I think some manufacturers fear this (and rightly so). Two honest manufacturers might publish specs for their amps showing that one develops 110 watts (continuous, into X ohms, at X% distortion, over a bandwidth of.....) while another developes 100 watts. Joe consumer wants the first one because it has more power. Great, he just bought himself 0.4 dB more. Now we have a spec war...

Worse still are the cable-company engineers who will thrill you with science. Their cables alleviate the dreaded Miller-effects, skin-effects, etc. You know what? They're probably correct. This would be important if your passband stretched to 1-MHz and beyond! We are, however, concerned with audio frequencies where those effects are IRRELEVANT!

Now, as far as amplifiers go, specs will take you a long way in a practical sense. Speakers are another matter entirely. Here, specs can be very helpful as well BUT things are far more complicated. The almost infinite number of possible types and degrees of interactions between speakers and rooms added to the variations in listening positions make such specs a rough guide at best. YES, they are important but here education is needed as well.

Finally, having specs for amps and speakers is all well and good but they interact as well. To this day, we can take two very high quality power amps that, according to their bench specs, are, for all intents and purposes identical and almost ideal. When we attach a set of speakers that present a particularly complex and varying load (in the impedance sense) they can behave somewhat differently, leading to real audible differences.

The bottom line is that specs, in and of themselves, are not a panacea. I agree that they ARE both necessary and desirable. In the end, however, you must use your ears AND your brain.