Double Bass Four-letter word beginning with "B"

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Open one up and post the pictures. Anybody who likes B can do the same.

Unless the person with the gear has no idea what they're looking at - like me. I just know what I hear....and what I don't.

Here is my gripe about the industry in general. Nobody is serving the role of a watchdog. We don't have our own "Consumer Reports." Seldom if ever does anybody actually check out the performance of a product and report the results. Maybe I am an oddball for doing this...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I don't think that's "oddball". Esoteric, yes. But you're obviously trying to be helpful, and that's a good thing.

Granted, I enjoy the electronics hobby side of this. But we shouldn't even have to do this. We let the industry get away with publishing minimal or useless specs. The biggest culprits are speaker makers, who could publish sensitivity curves, but prefer leaving it completely up to our imaginations. This is why all commercial bass speakers are on my boycott list. One could say that specs should not be the deciding factor, but the lack of specs results in a number of undesirable effects:

1. Companies that get away with making utter junk, some of it cheap, some of it expensive

2. Unfair accusations against companies that are making good products, albeit for a lower price

3. Marketing hype drowning out real information

4. Pure speculation about reliability and quality of construction

Regarding # 2, what can I say? It looks obvious to me that the company in question is ripping off designs and getting away with it because of loopholes in the law. If I were to write a hit song and have it ripped off with the title changed, I'd think that stinks...even if it wasn't technically "illegal". YMMV.

Regarding #4, I haven't speculated about the B******** gear I've owned. I've just listened to it. On the preamp I bought (after reading "favorable" reviews, I might add), two of the notch filters started making squealing noises about two weeks after I bought it...and I later discovered that the "toob" which was so prominently on display on the front of the unit was actually backlit by three glowing LED lights behind it. When I add to that the fact that it sounds terrible and noisy (like the headphone amp I bought at the same time), I drew my own conclusions.

I then posted my opinions here and elsewhere, just like I do when I buy a piece of gear that I like. That's part of what forums like this are for...and what the "gearhead" page of my site is for - to share my assessment of the gear I've tried with others. True, I only have two "specs" to share - the ones on either side of my head - but I trust those more than any piece of paper that comes with a piece of electronics gear, and probably always will.

A helpful and positive note: I've found that the company "M-Audio" makes quality gear at a reasonable price. I own three of their preamps, three of their mics, and a set of powered monitors, and all have performed flawlessly. YMMV.

 

[Tbeers]

A helpful and positive note: I've found that the company "M-Audio" makes quality gear at a reasonable price.

I'll second that. The only PC sound cards I buy now are made by M-Audio. They are no-frills, flawless products.

 

[Reuben]

OK I give up.
Which company are we talking about -- Bose, or Behringer?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Hint.

 

[fdeck]

Unless the person with the gear has no idea what they're looking at - like me. I just know what I hear....and what I don't.



I don't think that's "oddball". Esoteric, yes. But you're obviously trying to be helpful, and that's a good thing.



Regarding # 2, what can I say? It looks obvious to me that the company in question is ripping off designs and getting away with it because of loopholes in the law. If I were to write a hit song and have it ripped off with the title changed, I'd think that stinks...even if it wasn't technically "illegal". YMMV.

Regarding #4, I haven't speculated about the B******** gear I've owned. I've just listened to it. On the preamp I bought (after reading "favorable" reviews, I might add), two of the notch filters started making squealing noises about two weeks after I bought it...and I later discovered that the "toob" which was so prominently on display on the front of the unit was actually backlit by three glowing LED lights behind it. When I add to that the fact that it sounds terrible and noisy (like the headphone amp I bought at the same time), I drew my own conclusions.

I then posted my opinions here and elsewhere, just like I do when I buy a piece of gear that I like. That's part of what forums like this are for...and what the "gearhead" page of my site is for - to share my assessment of the gear I've tried with others. True, I only have two "specs" to share - the ones on either side of my head - but I trust those more than any piece of paper that comes with a piece of electronics gear, and probably always will.

A helpful and positive note: I've found that the company "M-Audio" makes quality gear at a reasonable price. I own three of their preamps, three of their mics, and a set of powered monitors, and all have performed flawlessly. YMMV.

Chris, I should have started a separate post instead of putting my comments after a quote from you. Sorry about that. My numbered list wasn't referring to your comments in particular. Like I say, this is my general pet peeve about the industry. We users are the ones who are stuck trying to make sense of it all.

And I agree that comments based on listening tests are valuable. I'd like to see both -- technical and musical information on products. Also, nothing would thrill me more than to hook up my probes and discover a "smoking gun" that confirms widespread suspicions about a low quality product.

 

[seamonkey]

Open one up and post the pictures. Anybody who likes B can do the same.

Here is my gripe about the industry in general. Nobody is serving the role of a watchdog. We don't have our own "Consumer Reports." Seldom if ever does anybody actually check out the performance of a product and report the results. Maybe I am an oddball for doing this...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Granted, I enjoy the electronics hobby side of this. But we shouldn't even have to do this. We let the industry get away with publishing minimal or useless specs. The biggest culprits are speaker makers, who could publish sensitivity curves, but prefer leaving it completely up to our imaginations. This is why all commercial bass speakers are on my boycott list. One could say that specs should not be the deciding factor, but the lack of specs results in a number of undesirable effects:

1. Companies that get away with making utter junk, some of it cheap, some of it expensive

2. Unfair accusations against companies that are making good products, albeit for a lower price

3. Marketing hype drowning out real information

4. Pure speculation about reliability and quality of construction

+1
Just a step away from the Bass gear is sound reinforcement gear that is full of specs. Which of course are compared to listening tests. I couldn't imagine pro sound techs not spec'ing out a concert sound system.

For a picture. I recall Bass Player doing a review of a B amp and publishing a picture with the cover off. Big torroid.

 

[drurb]

Open one up and post the pictures. Anybody who likes B can do the same.

Here is my gripe about the industry in general. Nobody is serving the role of a watchdog. We don't have our own "Consumer Reports." Seldom if ever does anybody actually check out the performance of a product and report the results. Maybe I am an oddball for doing this...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Granted, I enjoy the electronics hobby side of this. But we shouldn't even have to do this. We let the industry get away with publishing minimal or useless specs. The biggest culprits are speaker makers, who could publish sensitivity curves, but prefer leaving it completely up to our imaginations. This is why all commercial bass speakers are on my boycott list. One could say that specs should not be the deciding factor, but the lack of specs results in a number of undesirable effects:

1. Companies that get away with making utter junk, some of it cheap, some of it expensive

2. Unfair accusations against companies that are making good products, albeit for a lower price

3. Marketing hype drowning out real information

4. Pure speculation about reliability and quality of construction

There's just nothing new under the sun. Here are recapitulated the arguments, woes, and frustrations of the late 1960's re "hi-fi" products. The sorry state of affairs was cleaned up to a substantial degree by the FTC who devise (albit flawed) procedures and standards for measuring power. In addition there were the various publications (Stereo Review, Audio, etc.) that did just the sort of tests for which you call. Is there no publication that performs such tests on musical instrument electronics? I don't read those types of publications so I really don't know.

Finally, not all commercial bass-speaker manufacturers omit sensitivity ratings. For example, both EA and Acme publish theirs, although they are often not stated in technically correct terms (i.e., X dB SPL @ 1 meter for a 1-watt input).

 

[Tbeers]

Just for the sake of tossing around ideas, and because I'm genuinely curious....

My parents always used to buy huge containers of generic cereals, the ones that look exactly the same as the original brand, taste almost as good but cost much less. Even the packaging was sometimes very similar. The only major difference was the name on the box.

Is there a reason why this is acceptable in the food industry but not in the electronics industry? If there are no patents involved, then it's really the same thing as the cereal, isn't it? I'm trying to get my head around the whole issue. At the moment, I see "B" as the generic brand... same product in essence, but cheaper and not quite as nice.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Whenever I see this thread I can't help thinking what 'Bose' have done wrong!!??

 

[seamonkey]

Finally, not all commercial bass-speaker manufacturers omit sensitivity ratings. For example, both EA and Acme publish theirs, although they are often not stated in technically correct terms (i.e., X dB SPL @ 1 meter for a 1-watt input).

I noticed that Carvin also published MAX SPL, and freq charts in their manual section.

I wish more manufacturers would join in, but consumers need to drive it.

 

[larry]

Just for the sake of tossing around ideas, and because I'm genuinely curious....

My parents always used to buy huge containers of generic cereals, the ones that look exactly the same as the original brand, taste almost as good but cost much less. Even the packaging was sometimes very similar. The only major difference was the name on the box.

Here is a big difference between the "I like B********" camp and the "I Hate B********" camp.

I hate generic cereal. I eat lots of cereal and I can taste a huge difference. I'll pay the difference and smile about it. If someone else does not taste a difference, than why pay more?

I also happen to hear a huge difference in "B's" gear compared with other gear, as Chris, myself and others already pointed out. If you're ok with the sound and you want to leave the (possibly) shady marketing and production strategies for the lawyers to sort out, then go for it.

I'm a semi-pro / weekend warrior musician. I play about 70 gigs a year. I also record as a hobby. Besides playing, I take great pride in my sound. I would not risk an ounce of my reputation by relying on something I believe to be bad gear.

 

[seamonkey]

To draw another parallel, take a look at consumer reports. They'll do taste testing on all kinds of products. They do both scientific measurement and subjective testing. They do blind testing where they possibly can.

Sometimes people prefer the name brands, sometimes they prefer the house brand. Sometimes high priced, sometimes low price. Price has little to do with it.

I read a lot of anecdotal testimony on all kinds of bass gear, I have a feeling that if scientific double blind tests were actually done the results would differ from the current perceptions.

 

[larry]

I read a lot of anecdotal testimony on all kinds of bass gear, I have a feeling that if scientific double blind tests were actually done the results would differ from the current perceptions.

I assume you mean that not as many people would hear the difference between high-end and cheap gear?

I guarantee that the more experienced players will hear differences even if newer player do not.

 

[bluegreenturtle]

Wow, those threads about Monster are mind blowing.

 

[Tbeers]

I guarantee that the more experienced players will hear differences even if newer player do not.

???

Gaining playing experience, last I checked, doesn't enable one to hear noises that are inaudible to others.

 

[Freddels]

Sometimes people prefer the name brands, sometimes they prefer the house brand. Sometimes high priced, sometimes low price. Price has little to do with it.

Well there's a reason why some of the no-name brand stuff tastes the same . . . b/c it is the same. Many manufacturers will have excess capacity and will sell the same stuff to grocery stores with the store brand name on it.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

???

Gaining playing experience, last I checked, doesn't enable one to hear noises that are inaudible to others.

Just to play devil's advocate, I think it might. For example: I transcribe a lot, and always have. Each year during the week after Christmas, I transcribe about 60 choruses of music from various artists to assign to students in my graduate theory class. At this point, it takes me about 45 minuets a chorus (assuming AABA form) from beginning to final Sibelius output. When I started transcribing, it often took me two or three hours per chorus....and the work I did then wasn't nearly as accurate; last year, I decided to include an old Kenny Barron solo I had transcribed about 10 years ago. When i was going over it, I saw that it was riddled with lots of pitch errors. It didn't take long to fix them, but it did show me that the time in between was valuable for learning to hear more quickly and in more detail.

Another example, more directly pertaining to audio gear: I'm a recording hobbyist, and have a goodly amount of decent gear. When I go to the studio, I work with a great engineer (Philil Sturgwolt) who has been teaching me about recording. Often, we'll use multiple sets of mics and preamps on the bass to give us options later. About half the time, listening to each mic soloed, I'll say I prefer one to the other one because of its tonal qualities. He always kindly says, " I know what you mean, but the other one will sit better and project better in the mix"...and damned if he isn't right 100 times out of 100. I've asked him about B******* gear before, and he sayshe uses exactly one piece of it - a spectrum analyzer to detect rogue frequencies - and even then, he never lets the signal pass through it (just uses it as a graphic visual monitor to see if there are rogue overtones). When I asked him why he doesn't use it to control them, he flipped the switch to "active" mode, and damned if I didn't hear the "grainyness" that has always been my complaint about B******** gear in about 2 seconds. YMMV, of course, but I'll defer to Phil and guys like him on matters such as this, because they live that stuff 24/7.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

+1. That's why, when people ask me when I'm going to build my home studio, I say "never". Their are just too many talented guys, with great ears, within a few miles of me to not take advantage of their wisdom (and their studios).

 

[WalterBush]

???

Gaining playing experience, last I checked, doesn't enable one to hear noises that are inaudible to others.

More experienced players have learned over the years to listen more closely--if a difference is truly inaudible, no one will hear it, but someone who has been playing longer has probably trained themselves to listen more closely than someone with little experience, and will hear subtle differences that a newbie will not.
My wife can't hear the difference between diode clipping, tube distortion, or a digitally modeled Boss pedal, but I sure can. The difference? I know what to listen for through experience, and she does not.

EDIT: Plus what Chris Fitzgerald said.

 

[drurb]

???

Gaining playing experience, last I checked, doesn't enable one to hear noises that are inaudible to others.

You are quite correct but it IS a little complicated. In an uncontrolled testing situation, those that have been trained (in some fashion) to listen will often notice differences that others do not. That's because they know the relevant stimulus dimensions upon which to focus. Now, put those "experienced listeners" and some naive listeners in a state-of-the-art psychophysical detection procedure and, after just a few runs, you will most often find that (assuming normal hearing) performance will be the same for all.

Of course, most of us don't run around evaluating equipment via laboratory tasks. That being true, as I said at the outset, the more experienced listeners will usually notice what others do not.

See, I've managed to agree with just about everyone!

Now, one more thing. Being able to discern a difference and having a reliable PREFERENCE are two very, very, different aspects of human auditory behavior. I'll stop here.