Fractal AX8 vs. Line 6 Helix

[Selta]

You can also use those effects loop returns as inputs to run multiple instruments through separate paths. The io options on the helix are pretty extensive.

One other thing that is missing from the Helix that you may or may not care about is midi sync. I have no use for it but I know others might care.

I actually don't even know what MIDI the Fractal stuff has in total. I've sent MIDI CC and PC to it from stuff like Reaper to control it during a song (gave up on that, as I don't want to play to a click track live). Beyond that, MIDI is pretty much an unknown to me.

 

[ChubbyJerk]

I think you can send midi CC messages with stomp switches from Helix. Beyond that I don't know. I don't use midi at all. Just trying to throw out all the information I can for a fair and unbiased comparison. I love the Helix but I know it's not for everybody.

 

[Selta]

Wow, the Helix just released a massive update of bass stuff in 2.20!

- Del Sol 300, based on* the Sunn® Coliseum 300 bass amp
- Woody Blue, based on* the Acoustic® 360 bass amp
- Busy One Ch1, based on* channel 1 of the Pearce BC-1 bass preamp
- Busy One Ch2, based on* channel 2 of the Pearce BC-1 bass preamp
- Busy One Jump, based on* channel 1 and 2 (jumped) of the Pearce BC-1 bass preamp
- 1x12 Del Sol, based on* the Sunn® Coliseum 300 bass cab (12” speaker)
- 1x18 Del Sol, based on* the Sunn® Coliseum 300 bass cab (18” speaker)
- 1x18 Woody Blue, based on* the Acoustic® 360 18” bass cab
- Distortion > Obsidian 7000 (Mono, Stereo), based on* the Darkglass Electronics® Microtubes B7K Ultra bass preamp/overdrive/EQ
- Distortion > Clawthorn Drive (Mono, Stereo), based on* the Wounded Paw Battering Ram bass overdrive

!!!

 

[ChubbyJerk]

Wow. There's the update I've been looking for to motivate me to *update. VERY good to see some bass-centric additions. Thanks for posting that.

Also some auto-swell effects. Looks like a good update.

Anybody wanna loan me a B7K Ultra so I can A/B them?

Heh, looking at the full list, they seem to have added some midi clock (send/receive) functionality as well.

*edit to clarify: update, not upgrade.

 

[Selta]

I'll be A/Bing my B7K *(non-Ultra) to the modeled one ASAP.

 

[jimfist]

I actually don't even know what MIDI the Fractal stuff has in total. I've sent MIDI CC and PC to it from stuff like Reaper to control it during a song (gave up on that, as I don't want to play to a click track live). Beyond that, MIDI is pretty much an unknown to me.

If Fractal doesn't meet the new challenges of Helix, they'll almost be forcing bassists to consider other options for amp/cab sims. Good on Line 6, though, showing the bassists some love. Jeez, even the budget-minded ZOOM has stepped things up with the B3n offering a B7k emulation, a Trace Elliot model, and Urei 1176/Demeter compressors. Fractal...you're killing us!

 

[Selta]

Not to derail this completely, but I started this thread over at the Fractal Forums as well. Let's see if they bite. If not, it certainly is time to strongly consider going to the brand that has shown an interest in bass players:

Cliff, Matt, et. al - A Serious Offer

 

[Flabzilla]

A most informative discussion guys, thanks!

 

[Selta]

Always glad to help. I don't mind answering any direct questions on either unit, and though I am bias, I will try to keep things as factual as possible, when possible. I'll give credit due when and where due (as I think this thread shows), and if I'm asked for my opinion I'll give that as well... and all based on owning and using both pieces of gear

 

[Johnny Crab]

Great thread.
Been using Line 6 since 2006(BassPODXTLive), graduated to the HD500X about a year ago and use a Helix backpack for it. I skipped the others b/c our guitarist is a Line 6 guru(variax guitars, a million patches, sound like anybody, etc) and I'd seen him have issues prior to the HD500X. And now he's got a Helix since they came out. With this new bass boost package they released, a Helix is probably coming here some time in May(after paying an uncertain tax bill). Our house gig has us only using the provided PA although I use a touch of bass in my front monitor and a Bugera/Hartke clone EQ'ed for only mids and highs for clarity.

and my main rigs(if needed) are only the "FRFR" type.

Great time to be alive. From one who dragged a full SVT + 2 cabs PLUS an Acoustic 370 + 2 cabs around(1970's) to seeing looks of confusion on "old school" folks faces when they hear what these boxes can put out and we have no amps on stage if the venue system is good. Sound system operators LOVE having less open mics to worry about.

Subscribed.

 

[jimfist]

Not to derail this completely, but I started this thread over at the Fractal Forums as well. Let's see if they bite. If not, it certainly is time to strongly consider going to the brand that has shown an interest in bass players:

Cliff, Matt, et. al - A Serious Offer

Very interested to see if any of the big names in Fractal bite on this. The safe money, historically, has been that not much will happen...maybe a crumb or two, but not any sort of serious commitment. So unfortunate of FAS to have this blind spot. =(

 

[feliperigby]

Don't go to Fractal...
I had AxeFx 2 fro 2012 to 2015 and FX-8 (effect pedalboard unit) 2015/middle 2016...
They don't have love for bass player.
Which I say with that? They have some bass model amps there for bass, I few If you compare with the guitar models...
I they don't updade anyone since I think 2014? (on the bass amp models)...
The effects "are good" but need a lot of tweaking.

So in the middle of 2016 I sold my AxeFx2 and Fx-8 and went to a powerhead Kemper rack unit...
The best thing I have done... Should have done it earlier.....

 

[Selta]

Don't go to Fractal...
I had AxeFx 2 fro 2012 to 2015 and FX-8 (effect pedalboard unit) 2015/middle 2016...
They don't have love for bass player.
Which I say with that? They have some bass model amps there for bass, I few If you compare with the guitar models...
I they don't updade anyone since I think 2014? (on the bass amp models)...
The effects "are good" but need a lot of tweaking.

So in the middle of 2016 I sold my AxeFx2 and Fx-8 and went to a powerhead Kemper rack unit...
The best thing I have done... Should have done it earlier.....

I completely agree that there aren't as many bass amps and FX as guitar.
With that said...
You absolutely don't need to, and shouldn't, force yourself to stick with the bass amps. My main go to preset is made up of the SVT bass model and the HiWatt DR103 model. I have another preset that's used a lot, where I use the Vox AC-30 as my amp.

It is extrmely usable for bass and there are a *ton* of good tones you can get out of it. The FX aren't good, they're great - you gave up on it in 2015 which was likely prior to the Quantum series of updates. The FX can be tweaked, of course, to your liking. That's no different than a physical pedal board at all - you have knobs and switches, use them if you want to.

I'm glad the Kemper is working out for you though. I've never bought one, but I play with one every few months at the modeling meetup that I run. I find them severly limiting and not as good sounding as the Axe-Fx or Helix. Goes to show that everyone has their own tastes and should try as many modelers as they can

 

[Selta]

Very interested to see if any of the big names in Fractal bite on this. The safe money, historically, has been that not much will happen...maybe a crumb or two, but not any sort of serious commitment. So unfortunate of FAS to have this blind spot. =(

Well, Matt jumped in. We're getting the B7K now as well, and either I'm putting too much weight in on the statement, or I'm reading it as intended, but maybe more?

Cliff, Matt, et. al - A Serious Offer

Hi guys,

Thanks for the very nice offer. You certainly don't need at all to buy and send us the pedal. We'll start with the B7K. We'll purchase one, model it and add it to our firmware. You can add that to the official "Yes" list if there is one.

We definitely appreciate you bass players holding things down on the low end for all these years while we got all the spotlight and adoration. ;-)

We'll start with the B7K? Could be some cool news. I mean, I know FAS is still a fairly small team (especially when you compare them to say, Line6), so it'll likely be a bit slow to pivot and get a fair offering of bass gear. But, if we get the B7K in the next firmware or so, and hopefully more after that?

 

[ChubbyJerk]

That's great! Good job putting that out there, and great to see such a response from the guys at Fractal. Top notch.

Let's hope it leads to a game of cat and mouse. "Oh, crap, Fractal's caught up to us on bass effects, better add more!"

 

[Selta]

That's great! Good job putting that out there, and great to see such a response from the guys at Fractal. Top notch.

Let's hope it leads to a game of cat and mouse. "Oh, crap, Fractal's caught up to us on bass effects, better add more!"

That would be awesome. Competition does indeed help drive innovation at times.
Now, incidentially, we need to get more bass players on these platforms. I know for both, they consider bass players a "hard sell" and just in my own experience, it's a ton easier to convert guitarists than bassists.

 

[feliperigby]

No I had the Quantum firmware man on AxeFx and the "quantum update"on the Fx8 too......

 

[feliperigby]

Anyway that's my experience with Fractal Audio products....
For me didn't work and don't work for bass player only with a lot of professional/bed bass players too...

But in the end of the day it's all about own preferences...
And another thing that I don't like from FAS is, every single update (or most of them) the notes are: more reliable tone, more natural feel...
So they never achieved a descent tone of this "natural/organic feel".....

 

[Selta]

Anyway that's my experience with Fractal Audio products....
For me didn't work and don't work for bass player only with a lot of professional/bed bass players too...

But in the end of the day it's all about own preferences...
And another thing that I don't like from FAS is, every single update (or most of them) the notes are: more reliable tone, more natural feel...
So they never achieved a descent tone of this "natural/organic feel".....

Every modeler has updates that increase feel and tone. That's half the point of the updates. Kemper, Line6, Fractal, vPed - all of them shoot for realism. So, of course the firmware release notes will say those things. Also, if you read them in full, they add amps/cabs/FX, and also are increasing the realism in certain parts. I'm going to use FAS as an example, as I have their release notes handy, but in the past few, you can see they've targeted key areas:

- Improved Amp block output transformer to power tube interaction modeling.
- Improved Amp block plate clipping modeling.
- Improved background calculation accuracy for cathode follower parameters
- Fixed offset cancellation mistake in amp modeling

And on and on. All of these things will only improve the modeling, which I think everyone will agree is a good thing. Every manufacturer's system has areas they are weak in and could use improvement on, in addition to adding new amps, cabs, and FX that are "flavor of the week" for users.

I get that you tried and didn't like FAS's offerings. I'm glad you found that Kemper works for you. Perhaps some of this is simply lost in translation / language barrier as well, but I don't feel that the Fractal stuff is only for bedroom players. Look at their artist list for starters. Same with Line6 - definitely not just for bedroom players, they have top notch artists as well.

 

[ChubbyJerk]

Yeah, both Fractal and Helix have top-notch big-name professional artists using them. I think it's fair to say they're professional level pieces of equipment.

In the end, though, I don't like to argue about it. I prefer Helix. Selta prefers Fractal. You prefer Kemper. Many prefer analog. Many are happy with the Zoom B3. I'm fine with all of that. It's great. Find what you're happy with and go with it.