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Fractal AX8 vs. Line 6 Helix

I have done searches and just couldnt find a lot of info comparing the two as far as bass is concerned.

Right now I am ampless using a Sansamp Bass Driver DI (and various pedals in front). I own a PA that is capable of handling going direct (RCF 4Pro 2031 over RCF 8004 subs on either side of stage) and I use 1964 A3 IEM's.

After looking at the features of both I'm just not entirely sure what route to go. The AX8 has a lot more parameters to change in the effects areas, but the Helix seems to be a little easier to use especially when making changes on the pedal board. The Helix also has back-lit scribble strips where the AX8 has some LED lights that I dont see being much help, especially live on a dark stage. AX8 is also $200 cheaper. I am pretty sure that I can get both to sound good so it's mostly about usability.

Also I will use either one for guitar at my church so it will pull double duty, not just for bass.

Does anyone out there have experience with both, or even just 1, that you can give your thoughts on usability?
 
I only got to play around with a Fractal briefly, but it sounded great. I use a Helix (and nothing else these days), and I absolutely love it. I don't believe there's a right or wrong answer for this, aside from personal preference. Some claim that Fractal has a better sound. Based on what I've seen and heard, I'd have to disagree. If you can't get a killer sound out of your Helix, you're doing something wrong. (I don't mean that in a rude way; you probably literally have something set wrong.) The same is true of Fractal.

In my opinion, the area that the Helix completely kills the competition in is the UI. I mean the onboard UI, not the PC app. It's an absolute breeze to use. Better than anything I've ever seen. When they released it originally, they didn't have a computer app to set up patches, supposedly because it was so easy to use from the actual unit that it was completely unnecessary. I was skeptical, as were many others. It turns out, after I got one I completely agreed. They have since released an app to program it, and I haven't even bothered downloading it.

Scribble strips, which I thought were a stupid gimmick, are actually insanely useful. Especially once you have dozens of patches set up and you switch to something you may not have used in a long time.

Some dislike having an expression pedal attached and would prefer either none or using their own preferred type. I personally prefer having it on there. You can also add a 2nd one and assign them to different things...one volume, one wah, for example.

It's really easy to set up parallel signal paths, which is great for blending wet and dry.

I could go on and on about the Helix. It's amazing. The only complaint I can come up with is the price tag.
 
RCF 4Pro 2031 over RCF 8004 subs on either side of stage
This is a pet peeve of mine that I realize has exactly zero to do with your question, but... Even though it doesn't look as good aesthetically, subs should be clustered, not spread in the vast majority of live sound applications that can be handled by a system of this size.

I use 1964 A3 IEM's
Another off-topic point: How do you like the A3s? I've been considering them as IEMs for when I'm drumming, but have also been considering the A4s, A6s, A8s, etc. Do the A3s have sufficient low end for your needs?

The AX8 has a lot more parameters to change in the effects areas, but the Helix seems to be a little easier to use especially when making changes on the pedal board.
The guitarist in one of my groups uses an AX8 and I've been very impressed with the quality of the sounds he gets out of it. He doesn't really push its potential, mostly using a Fender Twin type of amp sound paired with a small selection of basic effects. Even on these modest settings it really does sound great.

A friend of mine who I'm not in a group with uses the Helix rack model. Just like the AX8 I'm very impressed with the sounds he's able to coax out of the Helix. I don't know how the rack and floor models differ in terms of processing, but assuming they're similar I suspect you'll find equally high quality processing. The display is much nicer than the Fractal stuff as you've mentioned, and for his needs (more in the metal, death metal, thrash metal, fill-in-the-blank metal genres) it works very well.

The Helix also has back-lit scribble strips where the AX8 has some LED lights that I dont see being much help
I have to agree that the Helix display looks much nicer in comparison.

If it were me I would likely go with Fractal as I feel they have a longer history of producing high quality tones, whereas Line 6 is a bit of a mixed bag given that they have products at many different price points. That said, I really do think you'll be hard pressed to go wrong regardless of which one you choose.
 
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This is a pet peeve of mine that I realize has exactly zero to do with your question, but... Even though it doesn't look as good aesthetically, subs should be clustered, not spread in the vast majority of live sound applications that can be handled by a system of this size.

When it's feasible to cluster I do. However most situations it's much more practical to do either side of the stage. And with the subs I have I dont really ever push them anyway.

Another off-topic point: How do you like the A3s? I've been considering them as IEMs for when I'm drumming, but have also been considering the A4s, A6s, A8s, etc. Do the A3s have sufficient low end for your needs?

I misspoke, I have the V3's (they are older models). They are fine imo. I probably put a little more kick and bass in than I would with 4's. A bandmate has V4's and he loves them. I dont think there is a wrong choice between the two.

The guitarist in one of my groups uses an AX8 and I've been very impressed with the quality of the sounds he gets out of it. He doesn't really push its potential, mostly using a Fender Twin type of amp sound paired with a small selection of basic effects. Even on these modest settings it really does sound great.

A friend of mine who I'm not in a group with uses the Helix rack model. Just like the AX8 I'm very impressed with the sounds he's able to coax out of the Helix. I don't know how the rack and floor models differ in terms of processing, but assuming they're similar I suspect you'll find equally high quality processing. The display is much nicer than the Fractal stuff as you've mentioned, and for his needs (more in the metal, death metal, thrash metal, fill-in-the-blank metal genres) it works very well.

As far as I know the processing is the same between rack and floor models. Good info, thanks.


have to agree that the Helix display looks much nicer in comparison.

the scribble stips are a big deal to me. I regularly mix on a full size X32 and it's easy to see what each channel is when switching layers. I personally own a X32 Producer and the lack of scribble stips is really frustrating at times.
 
There are some videos on youtube comparing the two. Have you watched any of those? Here's one guy with a whole series, a video comparing amp models, a video comparing effects, and so on.



Having watched a bunch, I still have to say it all comes down to personal preference. For example, I thought (as far as his video shows) that the Ax8 Tube Driver (3-knob) sounded way better than the one on the Helix. But then I thought the Tube Screamer on the Helix beat out the one on the Ax8. Both of those are just my personal tastes. For me, the Helix beats the Ax8 for Rat. For Muffs, the Helix wins; Ax8 is too muted and woolly for me (although, to be fair, that might make it a more accurate model...although I have no clue which variant was used to model either one). For Octavia, I prefer the Ax8.

These are all based off of the sounds in that video, as I haven't used an Ax8 that extensively. The truth is, with the amount of tweaking you can do on these units, you could probably get the sounds I preferred out of the other unit as well, if you sat down with it and tried. (In most cases...the Fuzz Face seems to be completely different beasts in the two units, so maybe not there.)

Anyway, points being: 1) it's all a matter of taste. 2) they're very comparable. 3) you might prefer some sounds (e.g. Rat) in one unit, but other sounds (e.g. Muff) from the other. 4) They're both awesome and I think either one is a good choice.

There was another guy I saw who compared the Helix to some Strymon pedals. The sounds he got were very similar, especially after he played around with the Hi and Low cut settings. The main differences were in EQ, which again, is very tweakable on the Helix.

 
I watched those from the first video you posted. From all that I gather they are both great units, and I would probably be happy either way. I havent seen anything where someone gave their thoughts on either unit for the gigging musician. Thanks for the reply
 
@Selta could help with some AX8 info. I personally only have used the AxeFxII. Fractal makes great stuff. Had either Helix or AX8 been available when I was in the market, I'd have jumped at either. At the moment, either would be overkill, and take up more space than I'd prefer.

I don't think either would be a bad choice. Keep in mind that the limited cabinet IR choices might lead you to consider 3rd party cabinet IRs from vendors like Ownhammer, 3 Sigma and others for better variety.
 
I can help with both AX8, and Helix (as well as Axe-Fx II, the flagship Fractal product). I have extensive experience (home, studio, gigs, I also host a local meetup for people with modelers, and so on) with all of the above.

Your post seems to call out usability as the main point, so I'll start there.

The Helix would "win" here if you were limited to the on-unit editing. The AX8 would "win" if you were limited to the computer (PC, Mac etc) editor. Both have parameters you can easily change on the fly directly on the unit - presets, scenes (which the Helix recently got in firmware 2 - Fractal has had these forever), tone shaping, the "blocks" (i.e amp, cab, FX devices) and so on. The Helix looks a lot nicer and IMO is a tad more intuitive when working on the hardware. When you flip to the PC editor (where I would recommend you do most of your heavy lifting for either unit, and leave "on the unit" editing for quick changes at shows if needed), Axe-Edit is truly hard to beat. It is SUPER easy to use - it starts off simple, but has pages/tabs of items that you can go as deep as you'd like with. My typical use case is roughing in a preset at home, usually with some of my band's recorded stuff. Then, at rehearsal I tidy it up fully. For that, I always take my Surface Pro (or any laptop, really) to do the edits. Not only so I can edit with the desktop application, but so I can quickly back everything up and have a copy of my final preset, just in case something catastrophic would happen. Then, at gigs, if anything at all is adjusted, it's minor EQ changes, which are super simple to do on both the AX8 and the Helix. The scribble scripts are "nice" looking, but I very rarely look down at my AX8 or Helix, and even when I do, I never have time to try to read the screens. Your use may be radically different, where the scribble scripts are important.

From the tone aspect, Fractal has the Helix beat, and it's not even close. There is just absolutely no comparison. Helix IS improving with every update, just as Fractal is. Fractal's update cadence is faster. And Fractal has quite the headstart on the Helix, too. Part of the issue is that the Helix has about one third of the DSP power that the AX8 has, so compromises will always be there. For bass guitar, the two are fairly close to one another in that they both are missing a lot of key elements. None of our really popular effects are available, for instance. Line6 or Fractal need to step up in this area, but neither seem willing to presently (it's likely a chicken/egg kind of problem. Not many bassists are into these. Hard to spend time and money developing for a market that may not buy your product. Most bass players get scared off because of this hole, though).
With that said, there is no problem dialing in wonderful bass tones on either unit. I prefer the AX8 over the Helix for bass, simply because I can dig deeper in everything and really get exactly what I want, not just be "close enough".

Where they really start to break apart is on guitar. The AX8 is just so much more refined that it's painfully obvious when you have the two side by side. Sure, I can (and have) gigged a Helix and felt pretty good about what I heard... but as soon as I directly A/B it (with my playing, my guitar, my amp) to the AX8, I strongly feel the AX8 has the Helix beat in every regard, and not by a small amount.

For what its also worth... YouTube, FaceBook and other popular video platforms SUCK for trying to get these things A/B'd properly. They compress the ever living heck out of the audio, as well as transcode it down a lot. SoundCloud is OK, but there is still obvious processing on the audio file that changes it, so it's not great for picking up subtle things.

A point of clarity as well - The Axe-Fx II and AX8 are similar, but not identical. They share the same processing algorithms, but the AX8 has slighter slower DSPs. The Axe-Fx II has two TigerSHARCs, whereas the AX8 has two ADSP-21469s. With that comes some limitations - can't run as many Amp and FX blocks in a single preset. But, sonically, they are identical.

My last hesitation would be Line6's long-term plans for Helix. How soon will it become deprecated, and then unsupported entirely? Line6 has a history of doing that. Fractal, on the other hand, bends over backwards to support their hardware. A shining example is that recent firmware updates would have caused them to no longer support one of their older rack models (one that you haven't been able to buy new for >2 years now). Their development team stepped up and worked for a couple of weeks to make it supported though, and still to this day, it is supported. They literally developed their way around a hardware limitation, just so people on the older hardware can enjoy the new firmware (new firmwares include algorithm updates as well as new amps, cabs and FX on occasion, so it's a big deal to get new updates). It's well known that eventually, that rack unit will just not be able to run the new firmware, but seeing how much effort Fractal put in to keep it going was very eye opening for me. I can't imagine Line6 going through that effort. It may be that Line6 has learned their lesson and changed their mentality about that - no one can say one way or the other yet.

Really, the best thing you can do is to have both for a couple of weeks at home and at your rehearsals. Put them to the test exactly how you'll use them. Spend some hours and learn the interfaces for both and get decent at tweaking them. Then see if one stands out for you.
 
One other thing... if you end up totally buying into modeling (either Helix or AX8, doesn't matter), you'll probably run into the rather large set of us who have totally walked away from amps and cabs as you know it. Quite a lot of us are using the modeled amp and cab, and therefore do not want our physical amp and cab to further color and shape what is coming out of our modeler. So, we've stepped into "FRFR" cabs and running with just power amps. "FRFR" means "Full Range, Flat Response". Basically, an anemic cab that doesn't have a color or tone of its own. The fEarful cabs and AudioKinesis are two great choices for bass, and there's a huge range of options for guitar (XiTone, Atomic, and so on). The idea being that you only want your amp/cab there for making the output from the modeler louder, nothing else.
 
The Helix would "win" here if you were limited to the on-unit editing. The AX8 would "win" if you were limited to the computer (PC, Mac etc) editor. Both have parameters you can easily change on the fly directly on the unit - presets, scenes (which the Helix recently got in firmware 2 - Fractal has had these forever), tone shaping, the "blocks" (i.e amp, cab, FX devices) and so on. The Helix looks a lot nicer and IMO is a tad more intuitive when working on the hardware. When you flip to the PC editor (where I would recommend you do most of your heavy lifting for either unit, and leave "on the unit" editing for quick changes at shows if needed), Axe-Edit is truly hard to beat. It is SUPER easy to use - it starts off simple, but has pages/tabs of items that you can go as deep as you'd like with. My typical use case is roughing in a preset at home, usually with some of my band's recorded stuff. Then, at rehearsal I tidy it up fully. For that, I always take my Surface Pro (or any laptop, really) to do the edits. Not only so I can edit with the desktop application, but so I can quickly back everything up and have a copy of my final preset, just in case something catastrophic would happen.
I take the exact opposite view. I never have to hook my Helix up to a computer, except for backups, and I like it that way. I can set up a complete patch from scratch at rehearsal in a few minutes. Or I can take an existing patch, tweak a few things, swap out a pedal or two, change the amp, and save it to a new spot, all right there from the unit's UI, without ever touching a computer, in about 2 minutes, with minimal effort. It's incredibly easy, straight-forward, quick, painless...unbeatable usability, IMO.

Part of the issue is that the Helix has about one third of the DSP power that the AX8 has, so compromises will always be there.
I can't find the hardware specs neatly listed either unit, so I could be wrong, but here's what I found regarding the chips in the various units. Helix and Ax8 should, I think, have identical dual SHARC chips:
Helix: two ADSP-21469 SHARCs at 450MHz
FX8: one 21469 SHARC at 450MHz.
AX8: two 21469 SHARCs at 450MHz
AxeFX II: two TigerSHARCs at 600MHz

That was from a forum post that's a little old, so maybe it's wrong.

I personally find scribble strips incredibly useful when I pull up a patch I haven't used in a while. By and large, however, I tend to organize my stomps in the same way on every patch, so I don't need them all that often. Different effect types also get different color lights by default, which helps at a quick glance without having to actually read the strip.

One thing I love about the Helix (and I think you can do this with the Ax as well, but not sure), is the ability to assign several pedals to the same switch. So, for example, you can turn on your octave, fuzz, and filter all with one stomp for an instant synthy sound.
 
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and there's a huge range of options for guitar (XiTone, Atomic, and so on
The guitarist in my pop/jazz band uses an AX8 into a 3-way 112 Atomic cab. It's this really slick coaxial arrangement where everything is aligned and shoved into a little kick back style cabinet. It sounds FANTASTIC and has much more even dispersion than your typical guitar cab. Very slick way to roll. Not cheap according to him, but seems to be worth every penny.
 
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I take the exact opposite view. I never have to hook my Helix up to a computer, except for backups, and I like it that way. I can set up a complete patch from scratch at rehearsal in a few minutes. Or I can take an existing patch, tweak a few things, swap out a pedal or two, change the amp, and save it to a new spot, all right there from the unit's UI, without ever touching a computer, in about 2 minutes, with minimal effort. It's incredibly easy, straight-forward, quick, painless...unbeatable usability, IMO.

You can do the exact same with the AX8. The reason I use the computer for either AX8 or Helix is because it's faster/easier to get to the deep options - on both platforms. Plus, having the backup the instant the preset is saved is a feel-good thing for me.


I can't find the hardware specs neatly listed either unit, so I could be wrong, but here's what I found regarding the chips in the various units. Helix and Ax8 should, I think, have identical dual SHARC chips:
Helix: two ADSP-21469 SHARCs at 450MHz
FX8: one 21469 SHARC at 450MHz.
AX8: two 21469 SHARCs at 450MHz
AxeFX II: two TigerSHARCs at 600MHz
As I recall, the AX8 DSPs are clocked higher, but I may be fuzzy on that. It's way more evident when you compare the rack Helix to the rack Axe-Fx. The rack Helix uses the same DSPs as the floor one, which was a dumb move IMO. A lot more potential could have been opened for the platform had they gone with tigerSHARCs.

I personally find scribble strips incredibly useful when I pull up a patch I haven't used in a while. By and large, however, I tend to organize my stomps in the same way on every patch, so I don't need them all that often. Different effect types also get different color lights by default, which helps at a quick glance without having to actually read the strip.
Cool. Like I said, some people may "need" scribble scripts. For some, that may be make or break. Glad they work for ya.
One thing I love about the Helix (and I think you can do this with the Ax as well, but not sure), is the ability to assign several pedals to the same switch. So, for example, you can turn on your octave, fuzz, and filter all with one stomp for an instant synthy sound.
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The reason that is even an ability on the Helix is because of Fractal. People comparing the Helix to the Fractal offerings wanted that functionality. Line6 agreed and put it in place with firmware 2, which was awesome. It opened up the functionality of the unit a lot and brough it a little closer to parity with the AX8. Now they just need X/Y switching like the Fractal products (where one block can have two states, "X" and "Y", and those states can be anything)!
 
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The guitarist in my pop/jazz band uses an AX8 into a 3-way 112 Atomic cab. It's this really slick coaxial arrangement where everything is aligned and shoved into a little kick back style cabinet. It sounds FANTASTIC and has much more even dispersion than your typical guitar cab. Very slick way to roll. Not cheap according to him, but seems to be worth every penny.
The Atomics are pretty spendy, and IMO will not work well with bass. Absolutely screamers for guitar though! The K12 surprised the heck out of me. I did not expect it to be loud enough, especially in Drop-A for live use, but it is. XiTone makes nice stuff, and it's what my guitarist uses with his AX8 as well. (I did mention that my main band has 3 AX8s and an Axe-Fx II in it, right? And my 2nd band has an Axe-Fx II and a Helix).
 
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I just went to update the 'ol Helix, since it's been over a year since I have. I figured there's been several updates since...

Edit: There's an update, just buried in the thread. Looks like there's been 7 Helix updates in the past year, contrasted to 13 for the AX8.
 
As I recall, the AX8 DSPs are clocked higher, but I may be fuzzy on that. It's way more evident when you compare the rack Helix to the rack Axe-Fx. The rack Helix uses the same DSPs as the floor one, which was a dumb move IMO. A lot more potential could have been opened for the platform had they gone with tigerSHARCs.
I don't know the exact details on the underlying hardware. I do think, however, that any discrepancies are due to software implementation rather than the hardware underneath.

One thing I will say about the Helix that can be annoying, the load is explicitly split between the two chips. This means you have to take care in how you organize your patches. Like, you can't just load everything up top in the first path, or you run out of room quickly. You have to spread it out in your patch layout. I don't know if the Fractal units are the same way.

It's not a big deal once you get used to it, but it can be annoying.
The reason that is even an ability on the Helix is because of Fractal. People comparing the Helix to the Fractal offerings wanted that functionality. Line6 agreed and put it in place with firmware 2, which was awesome. It opened up the functionality of the unit a lot and brough it a little closer to parity with the AX8. Now they just need X/Y switching like the Fractal products (where one block can have two states, "X" and "Y", and those states can be anything)!
They've been pretty good about listening to feedback and giving updates based on what people want, which is cool. I think the latest update has what you're talking about with different states. (I haven't actually updated in quite a while. It already suits my needs in terms of functionality, and there haven't been any new models that really excited me, so I put it off.) That is, I think, what the snapshots do. You can take a patch and set everything up and save it as a snapshot. Then, change every setting within that patch (i.e., change the settings of each model, but not which models are there) and save another snapshot, and instantly change between the two snapshots. I think that's how it works. Like I said, I haven't used that feature.

I'm not looking at getting into a pissing match about the two units. I've got a lot of respect for the Fractal gear. I think it's an overstatement to say there's "no comparison" between the sounds, but I respect your opinion there.
 
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I just went to update the 'ol Helix, since it's been over a year since I have. I figured there's been several updates since...

Edit: There's an update, just buried in the thread. Looks like there's been 7 Helix updates in the past year, contrasted to 13 for the AX8.
Additionally, I think only 2 or 3 of those updates were major content updates, with the rest being mostly bug fixes. I could be wrong though. I read all the patch notes, but haven't really been keeping track that closely. I've been more concerned about preserving the current functionality and patches, as I'm quite happy with it as is, than I have been with adding in the new features.

I have no clue what those 13 Fractal updates have been as a comparison, but like I said, I would like to see updates a bit more frequently. And, more importantly, I would like to see a patch with a feature or model that really catches my interest! So far, they've been listening to what people want to get, but I'm in the minority in terms of what I'd like to see, so nothing that really looks like a killer update for my purposes.

That's an important point to make - never buy a unit like this thinking that a problem will be fixed in the future or a model will be added somewhere down the line. If you're not happy with the unit as is in its current state, stay away from it. You can never be sure what updates will come.

That said, L6 has firmly stated that they have plans to continue developing for Helix for years, so I wouldn't worry about support being dropped any time soon. However, I agree that it's less likely that they'll make new stuff backwards compatible when the next big thing comes along the way Fractal has.
 
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One thing that I know some people really call a deal breaker too - the Helix has effectively 4 FX Loops, whereas the AX8 (and Axe-Fx II) only have one. I don't use an FX loop at all, but I know some people really lean on that extra one in the Helix. Certainly something else to consider.
 
You can also use those effects loop returns as inputs to run multiple instruments through separate paths. The io options on the helix are pretty extensive.

One other thing that is missing from the Helix that you may or may not care about is midi sync. I have no use for it but I know others might care.
 

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