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Double Bass Free Jazz and Improvised Music
- Thread starter Eric Hochberg
- Start date
For me, anyway, the lack of structure in some types of free jazz can become a type of structure itself.
Free jazz and free improvisation is all about structure. Pre-composed music and straight ahead jazz is about playing - you bring a structure so you don't have to make one.
I guess I should have inserted the word “pre-conceived” before “structure.”
While this concert may not be for everyone, this stands as one of the best improvised music concerts and concerts overall that I have witnessed. It's hard to put into words, but I remember being deeply moved after witnessing that performance.
Another one was a trio of Tony Malaby, Ben Monder, and Billy Mintz I saw at the 55 Bar in NYC 2 years ago. What stood out to me was the whole 40-50 minute performance was them developing the idea they started with, never wavering in energy and total commitment to what was happening at the moment. Plus after that first piece they played a short piece that sounded as if it could've been an American Songbook ballad. It was an amazing case study in the importance of structure in improvised music that Damon mentioned.
This concept is one I struggle with because the Ornette Coleman stuff I’ve listened to appears to have very little structure - and thus it turns me off completely. “Everybody solo!” and such. I have a lot of trouble finding any structure whatsoever in much of the free jazz/improvised music I’ve attempted to listen to; of course I am untrained with no formal musical education (just the stuff I’ve worked on at home since my lessons never started because of Covid), but I know what sounds good to me. I’m definitely digging in to these suggestions of artists to check out on my Apple Music and much of it is very good.
I understand the sheer expression of the art form though. Improvised music seems to be completely about indulging the musicians so I can see why so many want to play it.
Ornette's concept, especially the early work is called "Harmolodics", the basic idea being the structure & harmony follows the melodies which modulate.
"Everybody solo" which is not what is going on exactly, would still be a structure. Any piece of music that ends has a structure that happened. If you are looking for a chord structure, you won't find one - that is specifically avoided. The meeting points are different, but something still gets it from beginning to end!
"Everybody solo" which is not what is going on exactly, would still be a structure. Any piece of music that ends has a structure that happened. If you are looking for a chord structure, you won't find one - that is specifically avoided. The meeting points are different, but something still gets it from beginning to end!
It’s obvious I need to use a more outside the box approach to listening to improvised music and I am a willing listener. I’ll continue to give it a shot.
I just discovered this doc on Amazon Prime - Imagine the Sound - with Cecil Taylor, Paul Bley, Archie Shepp and Bill Dixon. Some great music especially from Cecil and Paul solo piano. This could serve as an intro, of sorts, to getting free for those not too familiar.
Watch Imagine The Sound | Prime Video
Watch Imagine The Sound | Prime Video
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I`ve played improvised music quite a bit during the last few years. For me the difference between free jazz and free improvisation is that in free jazz the musicians aim to live up a set of asthetics called free jazz, and in free improvisation they propably do not if they`re not grounded completely in jazz and free jazz traditions. In another words, in improvised music the set of aesthetics depend completely on who is playing / instantly composing, there`s no frame of jazz, or any other musics but the one`s that the musicians naturally represent.
The question about quality is a hard one. At first, I can`t help myself but play for the audience when performing free improvisation, I think hard, even too much, of what might move the common audience ( the other guy in the room who sits 6 seats away from my mom
). At first, there has to be intensity, energy and flow of some kind, whatever that is. If there ends up beeing a structure, or structures, that`s good too. One of the potential dangers of completely free improvisation from the audience standpoint IME is that the material ends up floating around one idea and doesn`t want to move on. Another danger is all ideas happening at the same time, all the time. Another danger is fatal and complete lack of humour.
I didn`t fall in love with free improvisation because I loved the recorded examples / live performances too much. I fell in love with what it did / keeps doing to my overall musicianship and development as a human beeing, no less.
This is a very welcome thread!!!
The question about quality is a hard one. At first, I can`t help myself but play for the audience when performing free improvisation, I think hard, even too much, of what might move the common audience ( the other guy in the room who sits 6 seats away from my mom
). At first, there has to be intensity, energy and flow of some kind, whatever that is. If there ends up beeing a structure, or structures, that`s good too. One of the potential dangers of completely free improvisation from the audience standpoint IME is that the material ends up floating around one idea and doesn`t want to move on. Another danger is all ideas happening at the same time, all the time. Another danger is fatal and complete lack of humour.I didn`t fall in love with free improvisation because I loved the recorded examples / live performances too much. I fell in love with what it did / keeps doing to my overall musicianship and development as a human beeing, no less.
This is a very welcome thread!!!
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How important is body language with free jazz and improvised music?
Meaning, is there no visual component among artists, using all ear and mind, or is there a lot of eye contact, gesture and visual queuing? How is the line between these typically drawn?
Meaning, is there no visual component among artists, using all ear and mind, or is there a lot of eye contact, gesture and visual queuing? How is the line between these typically drawn?
More like a black hole!!!!
Of all the Giuffre LPs with that lineup (Paul Bley, Steve Swallow) that one is the most out. But it is a great album, the CD has a bunch of tracks (mostly solo clarinet) that were left off the LP.The Verve sides, reissued on ECM as "1961" is a better starting point for that band and is readily available. If you like that, then try "Freefall".
The two HatHut issues of radio concerts during a German tour are also excellent, as are the "reunion" recordings made in the 80s and 90s for Owl and Soul Note.
there can be a bit, not in general, though. Sometimes an older musician will take on a "leader" role and do a bit of directing.
Butch Morris had a whole concert of conducting the music:
I am in there, it was about 13 years ago!
I used have a piece with a saxophone/piano/bass/drums quartet where we did the three foundational trios, this one, no piano (based on Ayler's Spiritual Unity) & no bass (based on Cecil Taylor's trio with Jimmy Lyons and Sunny Murray).
I'd say there is a ton to learn from this music, I listen to that work to this day! There is a new from Graz around. Also, the trio with Swallow on BG is still fantastic.
Butch Morris had a whole concert of conducting the music:
I am in there, it was about 13 years ago!
I used have a piece with a saxophone/piano/bass/drums quartet where we did the three foundational trios, this one, no piano (based on Ayler's Spiritual Unity) & no bass (based on Cecil Taylor's trio with Jimmy Lyons and Sunny Murray).
I'd say there is a ton to learn from this music, I listen to that work to this day! There is a new from Graz around. Also, the trio with Swallow on BG is still fantastic.
More like a black hole!!!!
The Verve sides, reissued on ECM as "1961" is a better starting point for that band and is readily available. If you like that, then try "Freefall".
The two HatHut issues of radio concerts during a German tour are also excellent, as are the "reunion" recordings made in the 80s and 90s for Owl and Soul Note.
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Not to derail, but I free jazz related:
Our little Chihuahua/Rat Terrier cross always - without fail - runs around the house with her squeaky toy when she knows her dinner is coming. Very excitedly she'll first find, then squeak her toy incessantly until the bowls go down.
"Nice tune, Ornette..." I'll say.
"Good one, Coltrane..." I'll also say occasionally.
Our little Chihuahua/Rat Terrier cross always - without fail - runs around the house with her squeaky toy when she knows her dinner is coming. Very excitedly she'll first find, then squeak her toy incessantly until the bowls go down.
"Nice tune, Ornette..." I'll say.
"Good one, Coltrane..." I'll also say occasionally.
More like a black hole!!!!
The best way into the Trio, for me, is their beautiful and definitive take on Carla Bley's Jesus Maria on 1961. I return to it over and over again. The previous trio with Bob Brookmeyer, which is on the Mosaic boxed set, is also amazing. But I think Free Fall is actually free improvised. I might be wrong about that.
Jimmy Giuffre is one of those geniuses who sadly seems to have "under-appreciated" attached to their name. He was also apparently a great teacher at the NEC.
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Some interesting discussion and recommendations in this thread - I look forward to listening to some Jimmy Giuffre. Perhaps, as suggested above, that will help.
I am reminded of an article in which free jazz was described as "the musical equivalent of Tracy Emin's bed". The chap who said that is also responsible for this amusing sketch. To this day my wife will complain "Oh no, not Desolate Shore again" (or similar) when free jazz comes on shuffle in the car.
I am reminded of an article in which free jazz was described as "the musical equivalent of Tracy Emin's bed". The chap who said that is also responsible for this amusing sketch. To this day my wife will complain "Oh no, not Desolate Shore again" (or similar) when free jazz comes on shuffle in the car.
It's been my experience that some play it as it can be easier to "fake into" when they are not that accomplished on their instruments, musically and technically.
There's an old story about a celebrated free jazz player who had a gig with James Moody. Moody asked him to play a Bb scale in the dressing room and he couldn't make it.
Hadn't read that before, and that's truth. Some of the best free music I've heard has been by players that can play anything - in, out, and in between.
This thread reminds me of an episode I had not thought about in many years. This is not a judgement on anything except my behavior at the time, and maybe a little about people's perception of music. I was doing a cross-country tour with a show and after a performance in Dallas some of us in the band were invited to a "jazz" club. After being there a while and getting involved with various mind-altering substances, we were asked to play a tune or two. By this point, we were so out of it that when we attempted "Satin Doll" (I am not making this up) we literally could only make marginally musical noises. If I hadn't been so out of it I would have been incredibly embarrassed. The guy who had brought us there( I'm also not making this up) came up and said enthusiastically,"That's the best free jazz I ever heard". Like I said, no judgement of anyone's musical aesthetic. For all I knew at the time, maybe it was.
The capper to the story is, we found out later, is that the place was the most popular gay bar in Dallas. I haven't had a drink or done any drugs in quite a few years which in my case is a good thing.
The capper to the story is, we found out later, is that the place was the most popular gay bar in Dallas. I haven't had a drink or done any drugs in quite a few years which in my case is a good thing.
