Double Bass Free Jazz and Improvised Music

[damonsmith]

AAnd for me it really helps experiencing it live, as opposed to records (even though there are quite a few that I really enjoyed, ), and seeing what is going on in terms of interplay/communication.

It is good to see how it works, however, the details are what is important so records are really best. To me a great album that gives up new details for a few decades is worth a 1000 concerts!
The details just fly by too fast live.

And this one I don't really understand. It might be a language thing, English not being my first language- but can you explain what you mean?

Best
Sidecar

Sure, it just means that a new sound or new way of interacting is valued higher than basic personal enjoyment.

 

[brianrost]

OK, I have to ask..."new ways of interacting", what does this refer to? If the "conversation" aspect of most jazz is frowned upon when playing free, what are accepted ways of interacting? This is the part I have always wondered about.

 

[damonsmith]

OK, I have to ask..."new ways of interacting", what does this refer to? If the "conversation" aspect of most jazz is frowned upon when playing free, what are accepted ways of interacting? This is the part I have always wondered about.

Basically how things are layered and where they connect. Things can meet at any of the sonic elements, texture, time, pitch, phrase lengths or types where you are working with space and register. So you end up with different locking points and different places where you connects - it could be one or more places.

 

[Don Kasper]

I have to ask, honestly. What would constitute a bad set in free jazz? Seriously, I just don't know what the criteria would be.

Has an answer (i.e., a sonic example) been provided?
Could any answer be free of the listener's inherent bias and subjectivity?
Is it even an answerable question?
Is it even an askable question?
It IS a fascinating question and topic. IMFO.
Thanks.

 

[damonsmith]

Has an answer (i.e., a sonic example) been provided?

Let me peck around and see if I can find one I'd be comfortable naming names!

Could any answer be free of the listener's inherent bias and subjectivity?

Yes.

Is it even an answerable question?

Yes.

Is it even an askable question?

Yes.

 

[brianrost]

Has an answer (i.e., a sonic example) been provided?

The meeting of Cecil Taylor with Mary Lou Williams from 1977 is pretty notorious, at least critics have slagged it for decades. Google for reviews. Actually, it sounds OK to me.



Mary Lou Williams & Cecil Taylor: Embraceable You? - JazzTimes

Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Don Kasper]

The meeting of Cecil Taylor with Mary Lou Williams from 1977 is pretty notorious, at least critics have slagged it for decades. Google for reviews. Actually, it sounds OK to me.



Mary Lou Williams & Cecil Taylor: Embraceable You? - JazzTimes

Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed

Hi brianrost,
You owe me 14:19! (jk)
I didn't care for this performance, but I have no idea if it is "good" or "bad". (I didn't read any of the reviews - I'm usually not a fan of "music" criticism by "non-musicians". FYI.)
Thanks for posting this example.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Has an answer (i.e., a sonic example) been provided?
Could any answer be free of the listener's inherent bias and subjectivity?
Is it even an answerable question?
Is it even an askable question?
It IS a fascinating question and topic. IMFO.
Thanks.

Thanks, Don. I was kind of wondering if the original question would get any traction.

 

[brianrost]

You owe me 14:19! (jk)

No problem, just send me a Paypal invoice Maybe I should have written that "OK" for me meant it didn't drive me out of the room, although I didn't find it very interesting beyond it's obvious historical value.

The best thing about the performance was that Mary Lou Williams really tried to meet Cecil Taylor on his own turf. For a major artist from the swing era, that's refreshing. I'll just mention here I've also heard Marian McPartland get pretty out with some of the guests on her radio show. At less some musicians keep their ears wide open as they get older.

I didn't read any of the reviews - I'm usually not a fan of "music" criticism by "non-musicians". FYI.

I just find reading them interesting. Two were written at the time of the concert where the LP was recorded. The other was a much later reappraisal in 2019.

Curious to what other folks think.

 

[damonsmith]

I've always liked that album! The other one that gets flak is the Coltrane/CT album. I think they could have made a much better album later, it is too bad they didn't! Louis Hayes is a bit stiff for this music, but I like Chuck Israels! The "swinging" CT albums with Buell Niedlinger are all better, however:

No problem, just send me a Paypal invoice Maybe I should have written that "OK" for me meant it didn't drive me out of the room, although I didn't find it very interesting beyond it's obvious historical value.

The best thing about the performance was that Mary Lou Williams really tried to meet Cecil Taylor on his own turf. For a major artist from the swing era, that's refreshing. I'll just mention here I've also heard Marian McPartland get pretty out with some of the guests on her radio show. At less some musicians keep their ears wide open as they get older.



I just find reading them interesting. Two were written at the time of the concert where the LP was recorded. The other was a much later reappraisal in 2019.

Curious to what other folks think.

 

[damonsmith]

Thanks, Don. I was kind of wondering if the original question would get any traction.

I provided plenty of ways it can go bad, I just can't names names in a public forum. I may PM some examples later!

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I provided plenty of ways it can go bad, I just can't names names in a public forum. I may PM some examples later!

Point taken. I guess writing about music is fine to an extent but hearing is direct. Maybe you can find an example from musicians no longer with us, if that helps. And, it certainly isn't all on you Damon even though you're the resident expert practitioner on the subject.

 

[damonsmith]

Point taken. I guess writing about music is fine to an extent but hearing is direct. Maybe you can find an example from musicians no longer with us, if that helps. And, it certainly isn't all on you Damon even though you're the resident expert practitioner on the subject.

I've always thought Song X by Ornette wasn't particularly good, Metheny and the two drummers don't help. All of Jarrett's American quartet recordings don't quite get there, it always felt like Haden was grounding something that was trying to fly! The newish Dave Holland / Evan Parker album is marred by clueless backbeats (something that shuts down free music faster than anything) and general conservative playing by the Americans (another thing that never helps). Not a bad album in general, unless you know the potential. The last quartet Holland and Parker recorded was the monumental album The Erical of Dolphi with Pauls Rutherford & Lovens!
Any Zorn Project with Mike Patton is going to just be horrendous.
There are lots more!!

 

[damonsmith]

*Ericle of Dolphi
Invalid Link Removed

 

[damonsmith]

The real bad ones tend not to get released, however. I've seen plenty of stinkers by groups and musicians who have great albums out.
Some are on youtube, but most I've experienced while waiting to play.
There are some early Free Jazz albums that worse than others, but usually there is some amount of interest since there was so much to do back then.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Speaking of Dolphy, whatever you want to call this, it's fantastic! The second half is quite free.

 

[Sean Riddle]

Speaking of Dolphy, whatever you want to call this, it's fantastic! The second half is quite free.

This is one of my favorite documented Dolphy solos. I wouldn't be surprised though if there's some sort of compositional element in the second half of the piece. While not "free" per se, Mingus's bands with Dolphy made some amazing music. Some of my favorite of Mingus's and IMHO, some of Dolphy's most inspired and creative playing.

Something I've noticed about Mingus's writing was that some of his music with the "Jazz Workshop" could get very "free" and that he was doing it with musicians much more steeped in be-bop. Starting in the 60s when he started getting more young/modern player in his band (and especially when Dolphy joined and the later bands with George Adams, Don Pullen, and Hamiet Bluiett), Mingus started to write more music with complex forms. I guess my who schpiel with this was that Mingus wrote in a way that challenged his band members to play how they normally wouldn't. I don't know how fully it relates to this overall discussion of free jazz/improvised music.

But I do think this whole thing of playing something you normally wouldn't is an important part and draw of this music (with my little experience in it). I remember reading somewhere in this thread Damon mentioning the allure of new musical territory improvised music can bring, and it's definitely something that has drawn me into it, alongside playing more "straight-ahead" jazz.

 

[brianrost]

Ok, another question. We always hear/read about "post-Coltrane" music, but what is "post-Ayler" music supposed to mean? I used to see that term used a lot in the old Cadence magazine (RIP) interviews and review.

 

[damonsmith]

Ok, another question. We always hear/read about "post-Coltrane" music, but what is "post-Ayler" music supposed to mean? I used to see that term used a lot in the old Cadence magazine (RIP) interviews and review.

It tends to mean dropping the heads and focusing on the energy:

Being lackluster is a way this way of playing can fall flat.

Post Coltrane can mean a number of things. It can mean playing free or concentrating on his pitch and harmonic based ideas. I think Evan Parker is probably the best example:

 

[damonsmith]

I think Mingus pointed the way as much as anyone for free music, whether his ideas were written or not. Especially the quartet with Dolphy and Curson. My old Quincy neighbor Ra Kalam Bob Moses used to sit in with that group as a teenager!
People like to use the criticisms Mingus wrote of Pharoah Sanders as a dismissal of free playing. Firstly, I don't think Mingus would think much of conservative straight ahead players now, secondly, his work is actually more important to the history of free music than Pharoah, as much as I love Pharoahs' Impulse LPs, thirdly, it doesn't get much more free and open than this:

This is one of my favorite documented Dolphy solos. I wouldn't be surprised though if there's some sort of compositional element in the second half of the piece. While not "free" per se, Mingus's bands with Dolphy made some amazing music. Some of my favorite of Mingus's and IMHO, some of Dolphy's most inspired and creative playing.

Something I've noticed about Mingus's writing was that some of his music with the "Jazz Workshop" could get very "free" and that he was doing it with musicians much more steeped in be-bop. Starting in the 60s when he started getting more young/modern player in his band (and especially when Dolphy joined and the later bands with George Adams, Don Pullen, and Hamiet Bluiett), Mingus started to write more music with complex forms. I guess my who schpiel with this was that Mingus wrote in a way that challenged his band members to play how they normally wouldn't. I don't know how fully it relates to this overall discussion of free jazz/improvised music.

But I do think this whole thing of playing something you normally wouldn't is an important part and draw of this music (with my little experience in it). I remember reading somewhere in this thread Damon mentioning the allure of new musical territory improvised music can bring, and it's definitely something that has drawn me into it, alongside playing more "straight-ahead" jazz.